this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2024
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I'd say US imperialism is many magnitudes worse than any other governments, except for the brutality of Israel. Who else has more than 750 bases in at least 80 countries worldwide and spends more on its military than the next 10 countries combined. But sure Russia, Iran, China, North-Korea, Venezuela bad.
It's funny, but not surprising how much you're down voted here. The meme is heavily upvoted for equating (presumably US) imperialism and (presumably Chinese) authoritarianism. But give an example of how much worse the US is, and people who pretend to hate imperialism fall over themselves to defend the US.
I think the point is that both are bad. But somehow it always ends up with a competition where the US is more bad than the rest, and the rest is therefore somehow excused when .ml is involved
It's important to recognize that when you equate two countries, you tacitly support the dominant narrative. Saying "ABC Bad and XYZ Bad" without doing work to contextualize the extent, impact, and level of "Badness" serves to exaggerate the evils of the "less bad" and understate the evils of the "more bad." Condemning equally is therefore an unequal condemnation for unequal evils.
See, that's the issue.
Pointing at state A and saying it's bad invokes the response "Well B is by far more bad, if you look at contextualized extent, impact, and level of badness!" thus down playing the bad state A has done.
It's like, A hit X with a fist, but B hit Y with a bat, twice and on the shins, so what A did isn't so bad actually. Instead of just admitting hitting is wrong.
It's best to correctly contextualize all bad. Simply saying X is bad if one country does .5X and another does 2X equalizes each into merely "X."
Exactly! :)
My point is that that is bad, it obscures reality and leads to incorrect conclusions.
Incorrect conclusions about bad actions being bad no matter who does it?
Bad actions have different intensities and scales. Such equal condemnation for unequal evil leads to people who refuse to take a Pro-Palestinian stance, which implicitly sides with Israel as the stronger force.
The whole point is to condemn evil whatever the intensity, scale or who is responsible.
But somehow it always comes to a comparison of evilness (obviously always the US) which somehow excuses (mostly Chinese or Russian) atrocities. And that is the issue.
I just showed you the consequence of your framing, correct? The goal isn't to excuse anything, but to come to correct conclusions. Your line of thinking supports the genocide of Palestinians, because it becomes a toothless "both sides bad," resulting in "continue the course." It's the equivalent of coming out and saying "cancer is bad," it doesn't change anything.
But it doesn't. It perfectly fine to say Hamas terrorist attacks are wrong and at the same town saying the Israeli genocide is wrong.
The problem is that when Russia bombs a children's hospital and it's pointed out as a war crime, there's always some schmuck saying "Oh yeah?! But the US is responsible for hundreds of thousand dead civilians in Afghanistan!"
And yes, that is fucking heineous but it doesn't make leveling a hospital less severe. 🙄
A bad is a bad.
Again, your moral equivalence results in standing back and watching Palestine be erased from the map. Equal condemnation for unequal evils minimizes the worse and raises the lesser evil.
I don't understand your logic at all. Being anti-terrorism is not equal to being pro-genocide and vice versa.
It isn't a black and white world and taking a stance doesn't require sith lord reasoning.
Saying that you condemn both assault and murder doesn't make one worse and the other less so. It's a simple acknowledgement of wrong acts being wrong which is perfectly fine.
Equating all bad as simply "bad" regardless of context, intensity, direction, and more is a privledged western position that seeks to undermine liberatory movements and entrenches the status quo. The status quo may be "bad," but by your analysis so it overturning the status quo. This is the kind of moralism that was used against the Civil Rights Movement, Palestinian Liberation, anti-slavery movements, and more.
Just like how both the Democratic party and the Republican party are bad, but somewhere here it always ends up with competition where the Republicans are worse, the rest is somehow excused when .world is involved.
And yet Russia still managed to launch a war with casualties on par with Iraq. Sorry sunshine, if you're a global power, you've got a body count in the millions. Period.
Very true. But is this an inherent trait of the world, or is there some path forward that would change or mitigate this fact?
Read a fucking history book at least once. The only country that makes the top 5 is russia by the sheer scale of terrain it held at one point and age.
Not even sure if US imperialism makes it to the top 5. With all its capitalism, systematic racism, history of camps, military might across the globe. Barely top 5.
Read. A. History. Book.
Israel? Fucking peanuts with its genocide of Palestine. PEANUTS!
Seems like this post is about you! :)
Shoot... US imperialism is soft-serve ice cream compared to the empires of history. Those military bases by and large extend the American security umbrella to protect the host country, not to put its population to the colonial boot and extract wealth. Yeah they sort of have to tow the line on US foreign policy, but it's a far cry from, say, the Boer enslaving natives in South Africa or Alexander the great wiping out populations who defied him.
The US has a long laundry list of dirty deeds, but overall the US "empire" has led to the longest and wealthiest period of global peace and scientific/technical/social advancement in the history of humankind. That doesn't excuse anything but neither is it particularly useful to condition our allegiances on utopian absolutes of moral purities. When we do, evil wins (e.g., see recent election where 10M Democratic voters stayed home).
Are you really sure you want to be ascribing global trends to the US empire?
Yes., absolutely. The post-WW2 world order was led and architectured by the US. Think of the Marshal plan, Breton Woods, NATO, the UN, the space race and cold war, and the huge impact of the US Navy providing global security for oceanic trade.
Whoosh
"Everything is very good, actually"
Facts gets downvotes here!
Fools get downvotes here. When the US launches a violent offensive directly on a neighboring independent country with the intent of destroying its people and conquering its land, which NK and Russia are currently trying to do, maybe you'll have a point.
Let's just summarize the argument made here using actual facts:
It's pathetic.
your conditions are too specific. what the US did to Iraq, Vietnam, Korea,... is already bad enough. But these dont qualify because they arent neighbors of the us, and the intentions arent exactly what you listed. still, these are already bad enough.
I absolutely love the part where you guys are all so vocal about "but the US did this and this" but have literally nothing to say about @mydude@lemmy.world up there acting like Russia and North Korea are perfect little saints while actively trying to wipe out civilians.
Just Tankie Things™️
dont blame me for the opinions of someone else. Just note how hipocritical you sound by dismissing criticism of the us while criticizing russia. Why not both?
I don't know much about Russia or north Korea's history, but I will not stand for the whitewashing of US crimes. It's an insult their indigenous people, Vietnam and the middle east to suggest that the US had no implications in imperial projects.
jUsT tAnKiE tHiNgS go fuck yourself
Fun fact: Wikipedia openly states that 135,000 more tons of bombs were dropped on the Korean peninsula than the entire pacific front in WWII.
Nice try putting words in my mouth, fuckhead. Things like Vietnam weren't even being discussed until the tankies in this thread tried to use them as a tool to deflect from ongoing atrocities. But hey, if you're down with bombing children's hospitals and apartments, you do you I guess. But maybe you should try learning to fucking read before picking a side and accusing people, dipshit.
Then wtf does that mean? Also if you think the US is above bombing children, civilians and hospitals, you must have been living under a rock.
Aren't you the one going around calling people tankies? If it makes you feel any better, I don't like Russia or Putin.
Of course the US citizens won't agree with this, so their government has to do it somewhere else, so the US could wash their hands. Funnily enough, last time someone did this, a CEO was murdered to get accountability.
This kind of crap is another level of hypocrisy.
How do you think the US was created lol?
Russia and Iran are the only reasons Assad remained in power, where he gassed his own citizens with chemical weapons and tortured, murdered, and jailed political opponents or anyone suspected being as much.
It seems to be a recurring theme with your shit countries. Threatening the world with nukes, instating the world's worst and most oppressive dictatorships, arming African warlords to exploit gold mines to prop up your shitty nazi landgrab war, building bases on land that doesn't belong to you and you weren't invited too, and the list goes on and on.
Yeah but those people aren't white so it doesn't count
Do you know how opinions are different from facts?
Such a sad excuse for an intellect.
It's an opinion backed up by facts.
None of which appear in either comment.
That's neat
Fact 1: USA has 750 bases in at least 80 countries worldwide (that we know of)
Fact 2: USA spends more on its military than the next 10 countries combined
Downvoted for being a dick.