Sounds like French law enforcement wants a police state that supercedes the civil rights of the public.
You know, the French public have a reputation for getting ugly when the state gets uppity.
That sword over Damocles is swaying in the breeze.
this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2024
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French law enforcement wants a police state
Not at all.
But by tradition in this country, the police has a more "robust" way of doing things. Makes no sense to judge that by other countries' ways.
What crimes did he personally commit?
From translating TFA:
Justice considers that the absence of moderation, cooperation with law enforcement and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, child crime offenses and fraud.
Same reason Russia wanted to arrest him, failure to do the government's bidding.
By that logic we should arrest all Car company CEOs for being complicit in crime lol, it's not exactly his choice what people do with his product
The criminals ate bread before the heist, better round up all the grain farmers
Not really comparable because the illegal content is hosted and distributed through his servers. Which is why most sites are moderated to a degree. This dude basically said "fuck off" whenever takedowns were issued. It's hardly a surprise that he's been arrested.
But, have you noticed that after committing a crime, criminals and felons usually escape.... using a car?
This is more like arresting the getaway driver, not the car manufacturer.
Not sure. I was just bored and was making a funny comment.
Except the getaway driver is just a cabbie who will drive anyone who gets in. He didn't know he was part of a heist.
Would you hold the CEO of lyft responsible if one of their self-driving cars were used in a heist?
If the CEO of Lyft got repeated warnings that this very thing was happening and ignored them willfully, then yes. In the end he has nobody to blame but himself. It's no different from hosting a file sharing platform without ever vetting the content and wondering why the cops show up one day. The stupidity of going to France knowing that you're a wanted man in a number of countries is just the cherry on top.
So if I lease a car it’s comparable? Rent a car, commit a crime, boom — rental company is on the hook. Moronic.
The rental company, on the other hand, is more than willing to turn you in to not be considered liable. Which they probably would be if they impeded an investigation.
Except that’s disanalogous, since it is impossible for an encryption service to provide the information being subpoenaed by definition. It would be like expecting Hertz to divulge a random customer’s favorite color. Why the fuck would a car rental company know a customer’s favorite color? How would they even find out? And how would an encryption service know what you’re encrypting?
If getting rid of privacy is what you think it takes to be safe and civilized in this world, you are not the latter and you don’t deserve the former.
Not really comparable because the illegal content is hosted and distributed through his servers.
landlords should be prosecuted for crimes commited by tenants in houses they rented out to the tenants.
People need houses to live. Taking stuff off your own server doesn't throw someone out onto the streets and leave them to the elements. Come on lol
If the landlord knows it's happening and let it happen then yeah, that's what being complicit is all about
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Illegal content is distributed through snail mail and telephones too, but those are common carriers so they aren't liable. Why should Telegram be any different?
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Next they’ll make encrypting your own files illegal. Absolutely preposterous. Do better police work!
So your pro arresting gun and ammo manufacturing company CEOs?
I'm all for it. Time to end the guns supply chain.
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Told Russia to fuck off, and now France is complicit.
Tells us a lot about how governments view Telegram.
has nothing to do with Russia, according to the linked article
Pourquoi était-il sous la menace d'un mandat de recherche ?
La Justice considère que l’absence de modération, de coopération avec les forces de l’ordre et les outils proposés par Telegram (numéro jetable, cryptomonnaies…) le rend complice de trafic de stupéfiants, d’infractions pédocriminels et d’escroquerie.
Ce mandat de recherche courait si, et seulement si, Pavel Durov se trouvait sur le territoire national.
En effet, Telegram est une ruche pour les contenus criminels. En ce moment, la plateforme fait l'actualité avec la diffusion illégale des matchs de Ligue 1. Mais sur cette messagerie chiffrée, de nombreux comptes sont utilisés par la criminalité organisée. Au-delà du terrorisme, les plus dangereux pédocriminels communiquent sur Telegram pour échanger des contenus. "C'est devenu depuis des années LA plateforme numéro 1 pour le crime organisé", commente un enquêteur.
even if it's not about telegram, this might help to understand ☞ https://www.laquadrature.net/en/2023/12/15/encryption-discussion-during-the-8-december-trial-from-myth-to-reality/
Several of the defendants were questioned about their use of tools and software such as Signal, Tor and Tails, and about the encryption of their computers and hard drives. The questioning followed the same pattern as the prosecution’s investigations, which we revealed a few months ago: a huge amount of confusion as to the technical understanding of these tools combined with a suspicious approach to their actual use. Three defendants were questioned about their motivation for using such software, as if a well-argued justification was needed, even though the tools are perfectly normal, legal and ordinary.
“It is possible and not forbidden to have these tools, but we can ask ourselves why dissimulate information” the president of the court stated. Suspicion of clandestinity coupled with little knowledge of the subject was evident in their questions: “You explain that the use of this ‘kind of network’ [Signal] was to preserve your privacy, but are you afraid of being monitored?”. Or: “Why did you think it was important or a good idea to find out about this ‘kind of environment’ [the Tails operating system]?”.
Thanks for that.
So basically, "Why are you hiding from us? Only criminals hide, so you must be hiding criminal activity!"
As the CEO he should be responsible for anything he was facilitating as part of his business, and that would include crimes committed using telegram that he was aware of and both did nothing to remove from his service and made it harder for law enforcement to prosecute. You know, like how a warehouse owner who knowingly sells space to pedos and does what he can to keep the police from searching the warehouee is complicit.
There are some circumstances where they are unaware or only take halfhearted measures, but in this case it looks like he is being investigated for actively working to enable criminals, including pedos. As the head executive, he doesn't have to do it personally if he is directing staff to make it happen.
I'm sorry, but it's a private messaging app! Not even the owners are supposed to know what is going on in the chats. It's not a moderation situation - I don't know if he rejected a request to ban accounts, but it isn't how things are supposed to be.
Isn't the main problem that most people don't use the E2E encrypted chat feature on Telegram, so most of what's going on is not actually private and Telegram does have the ability to moderate but refuses to (and also refuses to cooperate)?
Something like Signal gets around this by not having the technical ability to moderate (or any substantial data to hand over).
Exactly. Telegram has a ton of public channels full of content that is illegal in most EU countries and refuses to comply with any local laws on things like hate speech. They know perfectly well what their platform is used for, they just don't care. It would be a wildly different case if everything were E2E encrypted by default.
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Well, the French police seem to be saying the way he is running the company involves being knowingly complicit, not that they just happen to be hosting/facilitating communication without the company's knowledge.
only take halfhearted measures
Like what exactly?
Moderation that doesn't do anything. Have terms and conditions that aren't enforced. General 'we care' things that aren't actually effective.
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By this logic, the US Navy should also get into legal trouble for creating the Tor project.
Selective enforcement of law is a tool of oppression. Happens all the time in oppressive regimes.
From the article
The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the forces of law and order and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedo criminal offences and fraud.
But a lot of people are speculating they just fabricated claims to arrest him because Telegram is russian.
And some people think Brazil is being extreme on putting fines for X (Twitter) to pay for not blocking some accounts.
This guy is accused of being accomplice to crime just for creating and maintaining the platform where criminals do their dealings.
The road is downhill, my friends.
If somebody runs a market hall and allows stalls to be set up where narcotics and CSAM is being sold, and profits from it, and ignores police requests to stop it, I would like something to happen against that person. That person is complicit.
What I can’t understand is why telegram doesn’t just set up the some moderation systems. Most of their growth surely doesn’t come from drug dealers and pederasts? It feels like it would be a tiny element of it and not worth the hassle.
I suspect Durov doesn’t like dealing with big teams and can’t be bothered.
I’m a heavy user of Telegram (average about 1h of screen time every day, and pay for Telegram Premium) entirely because all my friends are on it and that’s because it is the best messaging client BY FAR. I’d love not to share this platform with criminals.
Since when did fighting crime become a “totalitarian state” thing to do?
Firefox french translation, not perfect but usable.
Why was he under threat of a research mandate?
The Justice considers that the lack of moderation, cooperation with the forces of law and order and the tools offered by Telegram (disposable number, cryptocurrencies, etc.) makes it complicit in drug trafficking, paedo criminal offences and fraud.
This research mandate ran if, and only if, Pavel Durov were in the national territory. "He made a pellet tonight. We don't know why... Was this theft just one step? In any case, it is ready-made", slips a source close to the investigation to TF1/LCI. Ever since he knew himself persona non grata in France, Pavel Durov used to travel to the Emirates, to the countries of the former USSR, to South America ... He had travelled very little in Europe and avoided the countries where Telegram is under surveillance. What now?
Investigators from the National Anti-Fraud Office attached to the Customs Directorate (ONAF) notified him and held him in police custody. He should be presented to an investigating judge this Saturday evening before a possible indictment on Sunday for a multitude of offences: terrorism, narcotics, complicity, fraud, money laundering, concealment, child-criminal content...
Reeks of the chat history access attempts and the like, or is it just my paranoia?
This shit is why end to end encryption is so important.
All platforms, no matter how trustworthy, can be corrupted. No e2e, no privacy.
But this is intentional. TG's ToS forbids alternative clients with their own E2EE.
Also he's the VK founder, which kills any idea of "trustworthy" immediately.
It's part of TG's business model, I think, something in the price list for governments. And the way they treat alternative clients in reality also hints that maybe backdoors are as well. Say, a new message format of the day (they add them really often) arrives in a new official Telegram version, somehow it's nowhere to be seen in the channels and groupchats you're in, but some day a DM arrives with harmless text and some code runs on your client machine.
I use Telegram, but trusting it would be asinine. Even trustworthy services can be abused, and TG doesn't even pretend to be that.
I think he got arrested because happening to be in Baku for a couple weeks and then still be there at the same time with Putin-Aliyev meeting, and their agreements apparently having intersections with Durov's activity, is openly weird.
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Looks like France is enforcing chat control 2.0 a bit prematurely.
The EU council is meeting to discuss it again on October 10. A new vote is likely in mid-December. Many parties and countries have turned their coat to support the proposal.
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can't believe that letting criminals and paedophiles run amuck on your service with no moderation would have consequences.
You forgot the /s
Oh shit! Not criminals and paedophiles! I didn't realize they were using Telegram to break the law. Yes, we should definitely end E2E encryption if that's the case. Thank you for enlightening me 🙏🙏
While we are at it, why not voluntarily wire out houses and put a person to interpret our conversations on 24/7 duty into our cellars? You never know whether your family members or you yourself are complicit of something.
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I have it on good authority that pedos and criminals drive cars and eat food too! We should do something to those facilitating that.
the issue is the company not doing anything to stop the spread of csam and criminal activity on their network....
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English language story from Reuters (no paywall) for anyone that doesn't speak French...
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