this post was submitted on 26 Dec 2024
195 points (91.5% liked)

Games

33228 readers
1028 users here now

Welcome to the largest gaming community on Lemmy! Discussion for all kinds of games. Video games, tabletop games, card games etc.

Weekly Threads:

What Are You Playing?

The Weekly Discussion Topic

Rules:

  1. Submissions have to be related to games

  2. No bigotry or harassment, be civil

  3. No excessive self-promotion

  4. Stay on-topic; no memes, funny videos, giveaways, reposts, or low-effort posts

  5. Mark Spoilers and NSFW

  6. No linking to piracy

More information about the community rules can be found here.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 120 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)

There are a number of theories why gamers have turned their backs on realism. One hypothesis is that players got tired of seeing the same artistic style in major releases.

Whoosh.

We learned all the way back in the Team Fortress 2 and Psychonauts days that hyper-realistic graphics will always age poorly, whereas stylized art always ages well. (Psychonauts aged so well that its 16-year-later sequel kept and refined the style, which went from limitations of hardware to straight up muppets)

There's a reason Overwatch followed the stylized art path that TF2 had already tread, because the art style will age well as technology progresses.

Anyway, I thought this phenomena was well known. Working within the limitations of the technology you have available can be pushed towards brilliant design. It's like when Twitter first appeared, I had comedy-writing friends who used the limitation of 140 characters as a tool for writing tighter comedy, forcing them to work within a 140 character limitation for a joke.

Working within your limitations can actually make your art better, which just complements the fact that stylized art lasts longer before it looks ugly.

Others speculate that cinematic graphics require so much time and money to develop that gameplay suffers, leaving customers with a hollow experience.

Also, as others have pointed out, it's capitalism and the desire for endless shareholder value increase year after year.

Cyberpunk 2077 is a perfect example. A technical achievement that is stunningly beautiful where they had to cut tons of planned content (like wall-running) because they simply couldn't get it working before investors were demanding that the game be put out. As people saw with the Phantom Liberty, given enough time, Cyberpunk 2077 could have been a masterpiece on release, but the investors simply didn't give CD Project Red enough time before they cut the purse strings and said "we want our money back... now." It's a choice to release too early.

...but on the other hand it's also a choice to release too late after languishing in development hell a la Duke Nukem Forever.

[–] RageAgainstTheRich@lemmy.world 36 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I honestly feel like this with Genshin Impact. It looks absolutely breathtaking and in 20 years it will still be beautiful. It runs on a damn potato. I personally like the lighting in a lot of scenes way better than the lighting in some titles that have path tracing.

I have always liked art styles in games better than realism.

[–] stephen01king@lemmy.zip 18 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

In what world does Genshin runs well on a potato? Unless you have a different definition of potato than me. My Galaxy S10e can barely play the game, and it's not even slow enough to be called a potato

[–] MHLoppy@fedia.io 27 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Might be talking within the context of PC gaming, where even a relative potato will beat the performance of a flagship phone.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Ashtear@lemm.ee 21 points 3 weeks ago

Unfortunately, Cyberpunk is exactly the kind of product that is going to keep driving the realistic approach. It's four years later now and the game's visuals are still state-of-the-art in many areas. Even after earning as much backlash on release as any game in recent memory, it was a massively profitable project in the end.

This is why Sony, Microsoft, and the big third parties like Ubisoft keep taking shots in this realm.

[–] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 14 points 3 weeks ago

Just wanna throw Windwaker into the examples of highly stylized art style games that aged great.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] makyo@lemmy.world 87 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)
[–] TheV2@programming.dev 13 points 3 weeks ago

Well, everyone has their priorities. The problem is that even the people, who do value realistic graphics the most, are not captured by new AAA games.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 48 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

How hard is it for them to realize this? Graphics are a nice to have, they're great, but they do not hold up an entire game. Star wars outlaws looked great, but the story was boring. If they took just a fraction of the money they spent on realism to give to writers and then let the writers do their job freely without getting in their way they could make some truly great games.

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 48 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Look, I'm gonna be real with you, the pool of writers who are exceptionally good at specifically writing for games is really damn small.

Everyone is trained on novels and movies, and so many games try to hamfist in a three-act arc because they haven't figured out that this is an entirely different medium and needs its own set of rules for how art plays out.

Traditional filmmaking ideas includes stuff like the direction a character is moving on the screen impacting what the scene "means." Stuff like that is basically impossible to cultivate in, say, a first or third-person game where you can't be sure what direction characters will be seen moving. Thus, games need their own narrative rules.

I think the first person to really crack those rules was Yoko Taro, that guy knows how to write for a game specifically.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ampersandrew@lemmy.world 20 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It's hard for them to realize because good graphics used to effectively sell lots of copies of games. If they spent their graphics budget on writers, they'd have spent way too much on writing.

[–] Grangle1@lemm.ee 16 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Yep, it's a byproduct of the "bit wars" in the gaming culture of the '80s and '90s where each successive console generation had much more of a visual grqphical upgrade without sacrificing too much in other technical aspects like framerate/performance. Nowadays if you want that kind of upgrade you're better off making a big investment in a beefy gaming rig because consoles have a realistic price point to consider, and even then we're getting to a point of diminishing returns when it comes to the real noticeable graphical differences. Even back in the '80s/'90s the most powerful consoles of the time (such as the Neo Geo) were prohibitively expensive for most people. Either way, the most lauded games of the past few years have been the ones that put the biggest focus on aspects like engaging gameplay and/or immersive story and setting. One of the strongest candidates for this year's Game of the Year could probably run on a potato and was basically poker with some interesting twists: essentially the opposite of a big studio AAA game. Baldur's Gate 3 showed studios that gamers are looking for an actual complete game for their $60, and indie hits such as the aforementioned Balatro are showing then that you can make games look and play great without all the super realistic graphics or immense budget if you have that solid gameplay, story/setting and art style. Call of Duty Black Ops 48393 with the only real "innovation" being more realistic sun glare on your rifle is just asking for failure.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] cybervseas@lemmy.world 41 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

It's nice to see gaming covered in NYT at all. The article generally rings hollow to me. I'm not an industry expert, but:

  • It's easy to be profitable when you're just making a sandbox and your players make the games, but at that point are you a game developer? (Roblox)
  • High end graphics cards have become so expensive that people can't afford gaming with good graphics
  • AAA developers aren't optimizing games as well as they used to, so only high end hardware would even run them
  • AAA is more focused on loot boxes, microtransactions, season passes, and cinematics all wrapped up in great visuals. That's at the expense of innovative gameplay and interesting stories. Making the graphics worse won't get execs to greenlight better games, just uglier ones. And they'll still be $70.
  • Even when games are huge successes and profitable, studios are getting bought and shut down (EA, Microsoft, Sony?), so it's hard to say the corps are hurting.

High end graphics cards have become so expensive that people can’t afford gaming with good graphics

Not only that, but mid range cards just haven't really moved that much in terms of performance. The ultra high end used to be a terrible value only for people who want the best and didn't care about money. Now it almost makes sense from a performance per dollar standpoint to go ultra high end. At launch the 4090 was almost twice the performance of the 4080, but only cost about 1.5x. And somehow the value gets worse the lower end you go.

Meanwhile mid-high end cards like the 4060 and 7600 (which used to be some of the best values) are barely outperforming their predecessors.

[–] p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (3 children)

This author has no fucking clue that the indie gaming industry exists.

Balatro screenshot

Like Balatro... you know, the fucking Indie Game of the Year, that was also nominated for Best Game of the Year at the Game Awards.

Localthunk was able to build this in Lua... WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!

[–] ampersandrew@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

This article wasn't about indie games.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] yesman@lemmy.world 36 points 3 weeks ago

This article's reasoning is faith based. The cornerstone assumption is that industry profits and layoffs obey the preferences of the market.

To those who follow the industry, this is demonstrably false. What follows is the lack of awareness on full display:

and even though Spider-Man 2 sold more than 11 million copies, several members of Insomniac lost their jobs when Sony announced 900 layoffs in February.

[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 35 points 3 weeks ago (9 children)

This is my current addiction. No need graphix.

load more comments (9 replies)
[–] WereCat@lemmy.world 33 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)
[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The worst thing is that some brilliant sound design is held back by some folks who will buy a top of the line video card but some cheap shitty headphones.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world 31 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It is hard for me to take seriously a hand-wringing industry that makes more money than most entertainment industries. Capitalism is the primary cause of articles like this. Investors simply demand moar each year, otherwise it is somehow a sign of stagnation or poor performance.

AAA studios could be different, but they choose to play the same game as every other sector. Small studios and independents suffer much more because of the downstream effects of the greedy AAAs establishing market norms.

We need unionization, folks. Broad unionization across sectors to fight against ownership/investor greed. It won't solve everything but it will certainly stem the worst of it.

[–] caut_R@lemmy.world 28 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

And I don‘t think games have to look that good either… I‘m currently playing MGSV and that game‘s 8 years old, runs at 60 fps on the Deck, and looks amazing. It feels like hundreds of millions are being burned on deminishing returns nowadays…

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

It's bullshit accounting, they're not spending it on the devs or the games, they're spending it on advertising and the c levels Paydays. There are a ton of really good looking games, that had what would be considered shoestring budgets, but these companies bitching about it aren't actually in it for the games anymore, its just for the money.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml 27 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

I mean, look at Nintendo. Obviously aggressive legal tactics aside, they make some damn fun games because they know that gameplay matters more than graphics.

[–] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 18 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Visuals are very important in games, but Nintendo pursues clear and readable designs. Their games are easy to look at, and they age more gracefully than games pursuing realism.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] newthrowaway20@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

Oh don't dismiss that they're also graphics and programming wizards. They don't work with the cutting edge, but they run circles around anyone on the lower end, making games look and run better on potato hardware is no easy feat.

I'd argue the optimization required to make something like that happen is significantly more skillful than all of the crap AAA stuff that takes 250gb and requires shader compilations every boot.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Adulated_Aspersion@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I have spent years trying to find a Super Mario World or Super Mario Galaxy feel to games. I am not looking for photo realistic. I am looking for a game.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 26 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It's not that I don't like realistic graphics. But I'm not gonna pay 100 bucks per game + micro transactions and / or live service shenanigans to get it. Nowadays it's not even that hard to have good looking games, thanks to all the work that went into modern engines. Obviously cutting edge graphics still need talented artists who create all the textures and high poly models but at some point the graphical fidelity gained becomes minuscule, compared to the effort put into it (and the performance it eats, since this bleeds into the absurd GPU topic too).

There's also plenty of creative stylization options that can be explored that aren't your typical WoW cartoon look that everyone goes for nowadays. Hell, I still love pixel art games too and they're often considered to be on the bottom end of the graphical quality (which I'd heavily disagree with, but that's also another topic).

What gamers want are good games that don't feel like they get constantly milked or prioritize graphics over gameplay or story.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] rimjob_rainer@discuss.tchncs.de 21 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

My favourite games don't look nearly as good as in my memory. Graphics don't matter, they might even hurt, because there is less left to imagination.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

I'd say it's less about imagination than gameplay. I'm reminded of old action figures. Some of them were articulated at the knees, elbows, feet, wrists, and head. Very posable, but you could see all the joints. Then you had the bigger and more detailed figures, but they were barely more than statues. Looked great but you couldn't really do anything with them.

And then you had themed Lego sets. Only a vague passing resemblance to the IP, but your imagination is the limit on what you do with them.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Anahkiasen@lemmy.blahaj.zone 21 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Overall good article with some inaccuracies but the answer to the articles question is to me an easy no. The whole industry won't recover because its an industry. It follows the rules of capitalism and its a constant race to the worse and while good games by good people happen on the side, they happen in spite of the system. Everything else is working as expected and will continue until you pay per minute to stream games you rent with intermittent forced ads and paid level unlocks.

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 19 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

The game of the year was a cutesy cartoon game about a robot. I don't think there's a problem here.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] anakin78z@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I just played Dragon Age Veilguard, and I'm now playing Dragon Age Origins, which was released 15 years ago. The difference in graphics and animation are startling. And it has a big effect on my enjoyment of the game. Origins is considered by many to be the best in the series, and I can see that they poured a ton into story options and such. But it doesn't feel nearly as good as playing Veilguard.

Amazing graphics might not make or break a game, but the minimum level of what's acceptable is always rising. Couple that with higher resolutions and other hardware advances, and art budgets are going to keep going up.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Nexy@lemmy.sdf.org 18 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Unpopular opinion but I preferer the graphics of a game were absolute trash but the ost be awesome. I can forget easyly how much individual hairs are in a 3d model, but good OST will live in my mind and heart forever.

And of course gameplay go first.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago

A lot of comments in this thread are really talking about visual design rather than graphics, strictly speaking, although the two are related.

Visual design is what gives a game a visual identity. The level of graphical fidelity and realism that's achievable plays into what the design may be, although it's not a direct correlation.

I do think there is a trend for higher and high visual fidelity to result in games with more bland visual design. That's probably because realism comes with artistic restrictions, and development time is going to be sucked away from doing creative art to supporting realism.

My subjective opinion is that for first person games, we long ago hit the point of diminishing returns with something like the Source engine. Sure there was plenty to improve on from there (even games on Source like HL2 have gotten updates so they don't look like they did back in the day), but the engine was realistic enough. Faces moved like faces and communicated emotion. Objects looked like objects.

Things should have and have improved since then, but really graphical improvements should have been the sideshow to gameplay and good visual design.

I don't need a game where I can see the individual follicles on a character's face. I don't need subsurface light diffusion on skin. I won't notice any of that in the heat of gameplay, but only in cutscenes. With such high fidelity game developers are more and more forcing me to watch cutscenes or "play" sections that may as well be cutscenes.

I don't want all that. I want good visual design. I want creatively made worlds in games. I want interesting looking characters. I want gameplay where I can read at a glance what is happening. None of that requires high fidelity.

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 14 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

Is there a way to actually read the article without having to be exposed to whatever the drug fueled hellscape that website is?

[–] brown567@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

I use Firefox's "reader mode"

Edit: nyt managed to enshittify even that. will wonders never cease

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)
load more comments (6 replies)
[–] elucubra@sopuli.xyz 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Gifted my kids, both of them already young adults, one of those retro gaming sticks. An absolute bang/for/buck wonder, full of retro emulators and ROMs. Christmas Day, at grandmas was a retro fest, with even grandma playing. Pac man, frogger, space invaders, galaga, donkey Kong, early console games…. Retro gaming has amazing games, where gameplay and concepts had to make do with the limited resources.

My son has a Steam deck, but he had a blast with the rest.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

You know the budget is spent almost entirely on the art when you actually pay attention to the credits and you see names for like 250 artists, but only 3-5 programmers.

[–] CrowAirbrush@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Then don't, i doubt people get sad when they realize they don't have to buy another overpriced gpu to run the game they anticipated the most.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

I have a computer from 2017. It's also a Mac. I can't play recent games and I think I've just gotten more and more turned off by the whole emphasis on better graphics and the need to spend ridiculous amounts of money on either a console or a really good graphics card for a PC has just turned me off of mainstream gaming completely.

Mostly I just go play games I played when I was a kid these days. 1980s graphics and yet I have yet to get tired of many of them...

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 weeks ago

The big problem for these AAA studios is that this is their unique selling point. Hyper-realistic graphics and sprawling game worlds. If they stop doing these, they're hardly different to the games from five years ago (which you can still buy and cheaply at that). And they're hardly different from indie titles. They would enter quite the competitive market.

I do agree that we're at somewhat of a breaking point. The production costs grow to absurd levels. The graphical advances are marginal. And not many gamers can afford the newest hardware to play these titles. But I don't think, there's an easy exit strategy for these AAA studios...

[–] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

"Hyperrealistic" weirdly means "more almost realistic".

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›