So what would be a good solution to this? What is something simple that bots are bad at but humans are good at it?
this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2024
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I work in a related space. There is no good solution. Companies are quickly developing DRM that takes full control of your device to verify you're legit (think anticheat, but it's not called that). Android and iPhones already have it, Windows is coming with TPM and MacOS is coming soon too.
Edit: Fun fact, we actually know who is (beating the captchas). The problem is if we blocked them, they would figure out how we're detecting them and work around that. Then we'd just be blind to the size of the issue.
Edit2: Puzzle captchas around images are still a good way to beat 99% of commercial AIs due to how image recognition works (the text is extracted separately with a much more sophisticated model). But if I had to guess, image puzzles will be better solved by AI in a few years (if not sooner)
So linux users are about to be blocked everywhere unless they install malware. I think I would rather just live with a dead internet.
Not if we build our own open and free-as-in-freedom Internet first.
Only to be discovered by the bots and other ne'er-do-wells...
With blackjack and hookers.
In fact, forget the whole internet
I love Microsoft’s email signup CAPTCHA:
Repeat ten times. Get one wrong, restart.
iPhones already have it
Private Access Tokens? Enabled by default in Settings > [your name] > Sign-In & Security > Automatic Verification. Neat that it works without us realizing it, but disconcerting nonetheless.
So, the spammers will need physical Android device farms…
More industry insight: walls of phones like this is how company's like Plaid operate for connecting to banks that don't have APIs.
Plaid is the backend for a lot of customer to buisness financial services, including H&R Block, Affirm, Robinhood, Coinbase, and a whole bunch more
No way!! Can’t find anything about it online - is this info by the way of insiders? Thanks for sharing, would have NEVER guessed. Not even that they’d have to use Selenium much less device farms.
Yup insider info they definitely don't want public. Just confirmed the phone farms were to bypass rate limit, although they do use stuff like Selenium for API-less banks
Oh my god. I lost my fucking mind at the microsoft one. You might aswell have them solve a PhD level theoretical physics question
Just noticed the screenshot shows 1 of 5.
So five wasn’t good enough… they had to double it. Do kinda respect that they’re fighting spammers, but wonder how Google does it with Gmail. They seem to have tightened then recently loosened up on their requirement for SMS verification (but this may be an inaccurate perception).
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Pizza toppings. Glue is not a topping.
Neither are pineapples. Fight me.
Neither were tomatoes before 1500. Times change.
Glue is not a topping. Pineapples are not glue. Therefore pineapples are not not a topping.
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Knowing what we now know, the bots will instead just make convincingly wrong arguments which appear constructive on the surface.
So, human level intelligence
You're wrong but I don't have the patience to explain why.
Isn't the real security from how you and your browser act before and during the captcha? The point was to label the data with humans to make robots better at it. Any trivial/novel task is sufficient generally, right?
Smell? :)
Seriously, we probably need to dig into some parts of the human senses that can't be well defined. Like when you look at an image and it seems to be spinning.
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Eyyyyy we’re fucked 🙃
Bro, everytime I get the select all the 'x' tiles (motorcycle, bicycle, bus, etc) one I never know if it means "all" of them, like even ones with just a little bit on the tile. Does it want the tires, too? It's bullshit. Never seems to be correct, what I select.
I've always done any square that includes any part of the thing, so the tire on the bus or the helmet of the motorcycle rider. That no longer works for me though, recently I keep getting more images and they seemingly never stop so I just give up on whatever I was trying to load. Its pretty ridiculous how shit the internet has become.
By now I'm up to filling one of these things. If they show me a second one, I'm out. Not wasting my time training some AI
I think they don't train AI with captchas anymore. That used to be the case 10 years ago when we put in all the house numbers for google maps. but as far as I know they learned to do it cheaper without the captcha service. as of now (and for some time already) the results are just wasted.
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so the tire on the bus
Ok, part of the bus.
the helmet of the motorcycle rider
The helmet is not part of a motorcycle. I will fail that captcha every time if it requires it.
You're training AI on road safety, the head of the rider is the most important part of the motorcycle i would argue
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IKR! i try and solve the CAPTCHA and theres a tiny 5 nanometer slice of crosswalk on another tile, and i have no idea if i need to click it or not. And then sometimes you don’t have that issue, and you click all the correct tiles, and then it just takes you to another one, and another one, and another one… they really need to improve it
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"select the bikes" That's a motorcycle and that's a moped. Those don't count-uh I fucking guess they do?
"Select the bus" Bro that's an intersection at 200 feet.
"Type the Captcha letters" Is that a lowercase r or a capital T?
Lowercase L and uppercase i are so fucking problematic
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It looks what most people do and humans are lazy, so, i guess, select only the fully covered tiles?
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Ditching CAPTCHA systems because they don't work any more is kind of obvious. I'm more interested on what to replace them with; as in, what to use to prevent access of bots to a given resource and/or functionality.
In some cases we could use human connections to do that for us; that's basically what db0's Fediseer does, by creating a chain of groups of users (instances) guaranteeing each other.
What prevents the adversaries from guafanteeing their bots that then guarantee more bots?
The chain of trust being formed. If some adversary does slip past the radar, and gets guaranteed, once you revoke their access you're revoking the access of everyone else guaranteed by that person, by their guarantees, by their guarantees' guarantees, etc. recursively.
For example. Let's say that Alice is confirmed human (as you need to start somewhere, right?). Alice guarantees Bob and Charlie, saying "they're humans, let them in!". Bob is a good user and guarantees Dan and Ed. Now all five have access to the resource.
But let's say that Charlie is an adversary. She uses the system to guarantee a bunch of bots. And you detect bots in your network. They all backtrack to Charlie; so once you revoke access to Charlie, everyone else that she guaranteed loses access to the network. And their guarantees, etc. recursively.
If Charlie happened to also recruit a human, like Fran, Fran will also get orphaned like the bots. However Fran can simply ask someone else to be her guarantee.
[I'll edit this comment with a picture illustrating the process.]
I feel like this could be abused by admins to create a system of social credit. An admin acting unethically could revoke access up the chain as punishment for being associated with people voicing unpopular opinions, for example.
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Are you a robot?
I guess not
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