A Palestinian man who was detained by Israeli forces in occupied East Jerusalem said he has been physically abused after officers brutally beat him and branded the Star of David on his cheek, according to Israeli media reports.
this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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Because historically, it was a disaster for Jews to not have their own nation, but be a (n often persecuted) minority in other countries.
Or it still is to this day, but now they have at least one more or less safe retreat on Earth. Yes, many other peoples still don't have that.
No! Police violence and abuse are NOT okay. Saying this as an atheist, anti-religious, anti-fascist from Germany.
We can and should condemn the atrocious misbehavior of the police, while still supporting the right of the Israeli nation to exist, which is tied to the basic human right of Jewish people to live.
Kind of ignoring the rights of Palestine there eh?
In the sense that I talked about Israel and no other particular nation, yes.
Not in the sense which you probably mean though. I even said "many other peoples still don’t have that" (safe retreat), which fits Palestine. Of course Palestinians, being humans, have the same basic human rights which I mentioned.
I'm not an expert in these things. I felt it would be impossible for me to give a nuanced take on all the important sides of the conflict. So I didn't even try, but still responded to the questions which were about Israel, likewise addressing Israel specifically.
I feel your edgy take kind of ignores the essence of my comment. I'd appreciate more balanced responses. Let's not react to unecessary hate and violence with a comment section which does exactly that.
It's not an edgy take. I don't agree with the "they don't have a home so it's ok that we took someone else's and gave it to them" stance you seem to have.
The compensation for persecution shouldn't be allowing the victims to persecute others....which is exactly what's happening with Israel and the Palestinians.
The right for the nation to exist has nothing to do with basic human rights, it's politics and power. You don't need a government to exist.
Now we're talking.
Yes, me neither. Glad we could clear this up. Personally, my favorite way forward after WW2 would have been to give them Bavaria, although this would have entailed other problems. Either way, we cannot reverse history and I think it's important for the Jews to have their own nation. No, that's not a free pass for things like this article.
Obviously agreed. I think I already made that clear. But since we had this misunderstanding, it apparently was not so clear. So thanks for bringing it up, and using a few more words on it.
Forcibly taking land from a group of people who did nothing wrong to give it to another group of people is not OK, full stop.
It's not important for us to have our own nation at all because we are not a political party. Are we not able to live with other people?
Let's be clear about something: the nation of Israel and the Jewish people are two different things. Anyone who claims that their religion needs its own nation is not doing so in service of the religion or it's people, they are fighting for their own political power.
Yes, obviously.
Yes.
I feel that's a bit too simplistic. 'Jewish people' can refer to religion, but also to culture, or descent. Neither of which have to overlap. Most importantly, it does not really matter how the individual identifies themselves to get into trouble for 'being jewish', but what others project onto this for their own political power.
I'd be happy to cease this point and agree there is no necessity if we have, say, 200 years of no persecution. I agree it should be possible to live in multi-cultural peace without distinct nations, but I also recognize it wasn't the case in the past. And I'm afraid it still isn't the case in the present in many places.
Sure we should condemn the misbehavior of the police which is part of the state (executive), right? So we should condemn the misbehavior of the the isreal state, right?
Yes its great what-aboutism you show. We are talking here about Isreal and the treatment of Palestinians who were there before the isrealites arrived on that land. And they are genociding them just like we (Nazi-Germany) did to them before. But we can't condemn them for what they are doing now since they were victims of them before.
This isn't about some cops doing some abhorrent shit to some people. This is about the continuation of the abhorrent crimes Isreal commit against Palestine!
This is an extremely wrong take. There are truly horrendous crimes happening in this conflict but it is not even close compared to what the nazis did in WW2. "Oversimplifications" like these are just relativizing the holocaust, nothing more.
Okay yeah you are right. Its not as concentrated as Nazi Germany did. Just more slowly.
You completely missed my point here. By making these comparisons you don't show how cruel the current event is, you just relativize the holocaust itself.
Also where would you draw the line? Is the USA performing a holocaust on mexicans? I mean ICE separated kids from their families and locked them up somewhere near the border, "it's almost like a nazi concentration camp". While we're in the US: black communities living in ghettos while being regularly mistreated by police and others? "Sounds like the Warsaw ghetto to me." And what about LGBTQ people being persecuted, abused and killed by lynchmobs in muslim countries? "That's basically Kristallnacht!"
Do you see what i did there? Are the things i mentioned cruel, awful and just wrong? Yes, of course. Are they somehow comparable to the darkest point in human history where murder on jews and other minorities was industrialized? Absolutely not.
Are all those things targetted to harm (mildly put) people of certain flock on the large scale? Yes absolutely. Also it was you who put the Holocaust onto the table, not me.
That doesn't mean that this action should be compared to the holocaust or even to other genocides for said reasons.
What are you talking about in the following sentence if it's not the holocaust?
Alright, i think it's pointless, you either don't get or don't want to get my point. Keep on with your holocaust trivialization, it's absolutely on par with the AfD Zeitgeist in our country.👍
I really don't but whatever.
The Holocaust began with bullets and conquest of the East. It wasn't all ovens.
The holocaust began even before the war but you completely missed my point here. By making these comparisons you don't show how cruel the current event is, you just relativize the holocaust itself.
Also where would you draw the line? Is the USA performing a holocaust on mexicans? I mean ICE separated kids from their families and locked them up somewhere near the border, "it's almost like a nazi concentration camp". While we're in the US: black communities living in ghettos while being regularly mistreated by police and others? "Sounds like the Warsaw ghetto to me." And what about LGBTQ people being persecuted, abused and killed by lynchmobs in muslim countries? "That's basically Kristallnacht!"
Do you see what i did there? Are the things i mentioned cruel, awful and just wrong? Yes, of course. Are they somehow comparable to the darkest point in human history where murder on jews and other minorities was industrialized? Absolutely not.