this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2025
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What??? No, reading comprehension (probably a good idea to understand the argument the other person is making before engaging with them). As I've stated over and over, the Steam Controller is good for playing non-controller games on the couch. Here, literally the first marketing paragraph from the literal Steam website...
Wow, gee... the exact point I've made over and over...
This means that I'm not going to sit down at my desk to play games on my desktop and choose to pick up a Steam Controller instead of just using the mouse that is right there. That does not mean that the touchpads aren't still great for using with mouse-based games, which they are, it "solves the issue of playing mouse and keyboard games on the couch effectively", but yeah it isn't better than a mouse. The Steam Controller has not replaced using a mouse.
I mean, it's easier homework if I only have to scroll up. You said what you said. Valve said what they said.
The weird part is we've ended up in the same place as the original Steam Controller. From being the "everything controller" that will support all types of games on a TV to being... well, not the right controller for games with controller support and clearly not as good as a mouse and keyboard for everything else, but hey, you could play stuff this way if you really wanted to.
Which is obviously not a great value proposition. "Hey, here's a slightly worse way to play a few of your games on a TV instead of at your desk" was never going to revolutionize gaming.
Oh, and by the way, I let this pass earlier because we weren't focusing on it, but for the Steam Deck specifically, the idea that the touchpads are "irreplaceable" and completely change the game when compared to other devices is also kind of confusing because...
... well, there's a touchscreen right there.
Not all games play well with touch inputs, but when you pile that on top of everything else the slice of games where the touchpads are an irreplaceable, indispensable requirement is vanishingly small.
I don't have a problem with people liking weird or inconvenient controls, mind you. It's just that I really would have prefered a version of the Deck that didn't need the Dumbo ears for the sake of keeping that weird vestigial remnant of the Steam Machines era.
What point are you making by quoting this...? Like... I stand by the quote. Yup, its not a stick replacement. Yup, the sticks have always belonged on the Steam Deck and it was never intended to be touchpad-only.
Compared to... what is the better way, exactly? It's actually: "Hey, here's a way to play a few ('few' 🙄 sure) of your games on a TV instead of at your desk that you couldn't have done before with a controller". Or is your answer "Just play those games on a desktop with a mouse! Stop having fun!" lmfao
Do you have three hands...? How are you holding the controller while operating the triggers and buttons and using the touchscreen at the same time? Using your nose to touch the screen? I think maybe you "let that one pass" for a reason 😉 (it doesn't make any sense and isn't relevant to the discussion). Are you genuinely proposing that "touchpads are bad and hard to use" but "the touch screen is a viable way to play mouse-based games"??
Lmao boy, you are not going to like the Steam Deck 2 when it comes out. Guarantee that touchpads will continue to be first class citizens
Alright, so more homework:
Valve DID say they were a stick replacement. Maybe we can keep going until we catch up with ourselves.
I'm confused about why playing on your desk is "not fun", but I assume that was a joke? Besides that I've also mentioned multiple ways to use a mouse and keyboard on a TV, which I do routinely and it's just fine with next to no compromises. Plus the touchscreen on a Deck, motion controls and other stuff.
For the record, the touchscreen doesn't need a third hand at all. Plenty of games are perfectly playable touch-only and for anything with partial touch support it's barely an inconvenience to tap something on the screen and go back to the controllers. Maybe at this point you should tell me what mystery game absolutely requires a dual touchpad setup but doesn't require the responsiveness of precision of a mouse, thus making it indispensible to have your handheld device be the width of a tabloid or your controller have no right stick.
Because, honestly, I'm drawing a blank here. The proportion of games that don't support controllers, can't be navigated with a single touchpad and a touchscreen but would not require a full mouse setup is very small, in my book. And, frankly, for whatever those are the real answer is to... you know, play something else? Not every game needs to be played on every device. I wouldn't play some games on a Deck not because they lack controller features but simply because they're not the best fit for the device and I have thousands of other games I could play instead that feel at home on a handheld.
Hmm, gee, let me think... perhaps any game where you need to be able to point the mouse without clicking or while clicking several times, or any game where you need the ability to left click or right click? Lmfao a tiny miniscule proportion of games, right???
Or maybe even a game where you need to press A to jump or X to interact while also controlling the mouse? I'm sure there's only one or two games ever made like that... 🤦
Lmaoo yep, that's what I thought.
You didn't mention any games. What games are those.
Do I point the mouse without clicking in Monster Train or Slay the Spire? Yes. But also, those games have touch and controller support, so I can do the same in other ways. What game would I play on a handheld that requires that but doesn't have any other way to do the same? That's not rhetorical, I'm drawing a blank here.
Where do you need to jump or press buttons on a controller while controlling the mouse? What is that? What game has controller support but also requires a pointer? I mean, Abuse, but that was in 1996, so maybe not that? Most games that use mouse aiming when playing on a keyboard map that to the right stick, off the top of my head.
Surely there's a list of games you played this way with a Steam Controller or on Deck touchpads that wouldn't play well elsewhere. They must have names. Right?
Umm... literally any RTS or management game... left click... right click... dragging entities around... multiselecting entities by dragging a box on screen... Good luck with the right stick for that, I'm sure its WAY easier to use it for these tasks than just using a touchpad to point the mouse, right? 🙄 Lmao.
Umm... literally any platformer or side scroller or top down game that has aim controls...
You wanted the name of a game, sure: Rimworld.
RTSs are unplayable on touchpads. I thought we agreed that touchpads aren't a good mouse replacement for anything requiring precision. Who is out there doing micro on Starcraft 2 on a Steam Controller?
And no, absolutely not true that side scrollers with aim controls need a touchpad. Bloodstained? Maps it to the right stick. Prince of Persia? Right stick. The entire Trine series? Right stick.
I hate when platformers require analogue inputs in the first place, because come on, you want to use a d-pad. But even then I can't think of a single example (since Abuse) that requires you to move and do analogue aim but won't support an analogue stick for that. The common name of top down games with free aim these days is "twin stick shooters", even. Nex Machina? Right stick. Minishoot? Right stick. Oooh, Knight Witch. Underrated. Right stick.
Rimworld, which I haven't played much, IS definitely a mouse and keyboard game. Same issue as with RTSs, though. I would absolutely not try to play that with a controller. Or a touchpad of any kind. Hell, the screen size would be a dealbreaker there.
We're looking for a bit of a unicorn here. It needs to be so coarse and slow that you can comfortably use a dual touchpad setup, but too cumbersome for a single touchpad or a touchscreen. Or somehow not supporting controllers but only for right stick aiming. Which Steam Input can simulate with a stick anyway.
Look, I'm not saying you can't prefer to play that way. You're in a very slim minority but you can absolutely be that guy.
I am saying that your choice is not anywhere near the only choice or the best choice. And for the places where playing with a mouse cursor is a must there is simply no good choice on a controller, with or without touchpads.
I mean that's basically like saying "Who is playing Startcraft 2 on a laptop???" lmao the Steam Deck and Steam Controller touchpads are literally more precise and usable than most laptop touchpads due to their quality and advanced haptics, and these games are 100% playable on Deck and TV because of them...
And further, in the same messages you accept "using a single touchpad", so like... you agree with me... great. And to satisfy your "dual touchpad" requirement, like I said waaaaaay back up at the top, the left touchpad is great for virtual menus. Pretty indispensable again in any RTS game, or mmoRPG, or pretty much any other games designed for keyboard with complex keybinds that a controller cannot support. An analog stick can work with simple virtual menus, but only doesn't totally suck when it is a radial menu. The virtual menu use is pretty much the only reason I use the left touchpad, and yet its so useful for making these types of games playable that it justifies its place on the Steam Deck.
Your argument, once again, amounts to: "Stop having fun!!"
I have no idea where you saw me saying anything about "using a single touchpad" where I was agreeing with you. I said I wouldn't play those games on any touchpad, single or dual, haptic or not.
You also underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups. Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad. Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that's about it. Let's not get crazy with our much real state you have on that thing, especially if you're trying to do anything time-sensitive.
And no, the argument isn't "stop having fun", the argument is "don't force games that aren't fun on a controller to be on a controller". I can't imagine having fun with a fast mouse-driven game on the tiny touchpad on the Deck, or even in the larger one on the Steam Controller. Or on a huge Macbook touchpad or on ANY touchpad. They don't need to be coaxed to work poorly on a mediocre replacement when they work great on the native control setup they're designed for. A few cases overlap enough to make things work well enough, but then the lack of an overengineered dual touchpad setup is not the limiting factor because there are so many alternatives in modern devices, from motion controls to touchscreens and paddles.
The touchpads were always a solution looking for a problem, even when controllers were a lot simpler. Now they're a sub-par solution looking for a problem.
Out of curiosity, what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller? Because I've tried that (it was 2015, I had just gotten a Steam Controller and didn't know any better) and it's one of the least pleasant gaming experiences I can imagine. Did you really do that on purpose or is this a hypothetical?
Ah yes, complex and hard-to-remember controller mappings, so much easier than: put thumb on pad -> make selection. Great point lmao. No one is saying that you can't rig up solutions for controller, just that they are difficult to use and less payable than just using the touchpad. This very thing is probably what is driving you away from playing these games on Deck back to your computer or keyboard-lapboard gadget thing.
I agree 100%
You underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Lmao
Manor Lords. Total War games are great too. Civilization is turn based but still the same input mechanics and is much better on the TV due to the touchpads. Management games have all the same input mechanics as RTS but different gameplay, the obvious example is Rimworld, but also things like Zoo Tycoon and Cities: Skylines. All of these are totally playable, and several I, personally, prefer on the couch
except they are fun and 100% playable, thanks to the touchpads. This is just what we actually disagree on, and MANY people agree with me here and use the Steam Deck to play these games, it isn't some obscure or niche opinion, and its a major discriminator between the Steam Deck and other handhelds that are lacking in these input features
I mean, "MANY" in relation to, say, how many people would show up to someone's birthday party. Not "MANY" as in "the size of a videogame audience". We kinda know that for a fact. For reference, Steam does show the most played games on Deck. The first game with no official controller support shows up at 79. It's The Sims 4. For what it's worth, the two most used Steam Input configs do use the trackpads, but they just map the right one as a mouse and have the left one mapped to four directional functions. If your argument for the dual trackpads was simplicity, let me tell you, both of these configs are complete spaghetti, so I don't think that holds much water.
Rimworld is in there, suprisingly, in the 80s. Made me count all the way there, they should really put numbers on that list. Those seem to be the sole two mouse-driven entries. There are no RTS games, tycoon games or city builders that I can see.
In any case, you're right that we agree on whether playing strategy games on a touchpad is fun. It really is not.
By the way, you do realize your counter to the radial menu thing was a screenshot of a radial menu, right? The fact that it's using squares doesn't change how that works (except for how a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu, but that's neither here nor there).
I mean... for any game in the top 500 on Steam Deck... That sure would be one hell of a birthday party. You must have no concept of how big of a number 4 million is and how many people are playing these games on Deck...
Do you just not know what a radial menu is? The grid layout fits as many things as you configure it to, and the layout and arrangement of squares are fully configurable, which can be more useful and contextual than a radial menu... you should really watch that video I linked above, especially if you have time to spend counting games in the steam list lmao
Area scales faster than perimeter/circumference. You are literally, mathematically, incorrect. 36 buttons in a grid would still be readable and usable, with only 6 buttons per row, while 36 slices of a circle would be an unreadable squished mess with 9 items in each quadrant... That radial menu would likely need to be the size of the screen
And for the record, its not really a surprise or supportive of your argument that controller-first games are more popular, given that the Steam Deck also works great for controller-first games... like... duh?? That doesn't prove the point you think it does
Granblue Relink is just about closing that top 100 and has about 650 players right now. That's not on Deck, that's across all of Steam.
That's a big birthday party, but not an all-timer.
I know what a radial menu is. The menu you sent is a nine square grid, which is a neutral spot surrounded by eight directional inputs. So a radial menu.
You can make other menus, but you just happened to send me a radial menu, specifically. Which I suspect was chosen there because, like I said, the small touchpad at best suits a radial menu or a directional menu.
And the point isn't that controller-first games are more popular, it's that mouse-first games are quite unpopular. Several big mouse-first games are in the overall most played list but not on the Deck list. Others appear lower. DOTA 2, for one, which is at the top of the overall and nowhere to be seen on the Deck top 100.
And yeah, when somebody argues something iffy in an online discussion I'm the kind of person to go and check. I don't mind being wrong that much, but I do want to know.
Homework.
So a completely different measure than what is used for ranking Great on Steam Deck games...? 🤦 Comparison to concurrent users just isn't valid because Great on Steam Deck ranking aren't measured by concurrent users...
Evidence needed. Also, did you purposely leave out the fact that Civ VII is literally #2 trending on the Deck right now because it proves you argument wrong or...?
That's certainly convenient for you lol
It's a different measure because Valve does not disclose full install counts at all, let alone per hardware type, but it does provide concurrent users. I work with what I have. In any case, the top of the list is in the hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, so that does show that the top 100 on Deck does run the gamut until fairly low in usage. That's not a surprise, gaming is very winner-takes-all right now, particularly on PC. Steam user counts drop VERY quickly, so your argument that the top 500 is all huge is not accurate.
As for Civ VII, I was going off the last top 100 list, which is yearly and thus covering a period before the Civ VII launch, but Civ VI was actually there and I missed it. It shows up at 37. That's now 3% of the list that is mouse driven. I stand corrected. You're still wrong.
By the way, speaking of using different metrics, "trending" games aren't built on absolute numbers, so top played and trending don't line up at all. I'm assuming Civ VII will make the cut on Deck whenever it does get counted on absolute usage, though.
Makes invalid comparisons based on incompatible measures and draws incorrect conclusions
😂
None of the measure are incompatible, none of the conclusions are incorrect and you're still wrong.
Alrighty, then! If you say so
continues enjoying keyboard and mouse games on Steam Deck like most users, as Valve intended
Not most users, not even as Valve intended (on the Deck, at least).
They literally reserved the green "Verified" badge for games with full controller support and are the only ones eligible for the "Great on Deck" tab. Mouse and Keyboard games get the yellow "Playable" tag instead and a warning on boot.
See, that's the sad part about actually looking things up. It takes time, people get to nitpick it to death and then some guys will just... you know, say stuff.
Lmao "Playable" tag...
It means official full controller support with the default config. There are few games that provide official controller support over Steam Input in the first place, even fewer that have any touchpad custom inputs by default and I'm not even sure if there are any that are Steam Verified. At a glance it's... what, just Rimworld again? Maybe some first party stuff left over from the Steam Machines fiasco? Sims is only Playable. Civ VII, which you called out earlier, I suspect incorrectly, has official all-stick support, what with having launched on consoles day and date. I haven't checked it because I haven't bought it yet, so if I'm wrong let me know. Civ VI doesn't have default controller support, but it's only Playable as well. In fact, if you have a list of verified games with touchpad default support I'd love to see it. I'm genuinely curious.
Look, you get to live in this very specific alternate reality where the only difference is people love dual touchpads as a main input system. That's fine, you're not hurting anybody. I get hung up on it because blatant misrepresentations on social media are fairly upsetting these days and because I'm still not over having had to use the dumb touchpads on the Vive for a couple of years back there.
But man, is it exhausting to watch it act as a proxy of some much more important crap in real time.
Wow this "alternate reality" seems pretty immersive:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/td9inr/how_good_are_the_touchpads/
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1675200/discussions/0/4353368616863474991/
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/steam-deck-valve-gaming-handheld
Gee, what kind of "homework" did you even do? These were the top 3 search results for "steam deck trackpad review", skipping over a Reddit post titled " Steam Deck Trackpads are Actually Good" which was the #2 search result
Hah. Man, you were fuming about that one for a while, huh?
I said at the very tippy top of this thread that
and later
It's no surprise that there are people swearing by them loudly and proudly. In fact, there are more people doing that than the opposite, because most people just... you know, ignore the whole thing altogether and haven't through about the Steam Controller in a decade.
The reason I was pulling quotes for you is that you denied the touchpad reception in the OG Controller was mixed and that Valve was presenting them as a stick substitute, which was demonstrably incorrect.
What was I "fuming" about...? Wdym?
"Everyone around me says they have positive experiences with the touchpads! They're the ones that are wrong and I am right, because... the real people just ignore them and don't post about it!!!"
Lmao. Yeah, I'm the one in an alternate reality here...
Not everybody around me. Nobody around me has ever mentioned a touchpad outside of threads about the touchpad. It's not a thing.
Everybody on Steam seems to be playing controller games on sticks, though. At least from the data Steam shares. Which matches reviews at the time (and later, when people had to pay attention to them on the Deck), the way games on Deck are put together by devs, the low sales of the Controller, the changes to the Vive controller, the lack of other hardware manufacturers doing dual touchpads and pretty much every other piece of info at scale we have beyond anecdote.
Man, online chatter sucks and does bad things to people. I think I'm done with this. Have fun with the dual pads Valve bestowed upon you. I don't need you to change your mind about their popularity, but man, there's going to be a Smithers moment for you at some point on something else and it sure would be good if you thought back to this.
Ta.