I have no idea where you saw me saying anything about "using a single touchpad" where I was agreeing with you. I said I wouldn't play those games on any touchpad, single or dual, haptic or not.

You also underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups. Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad. Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that's about it. Let's not get crazy with our much real state you have on that thing, especially if you're trying to do anything time-sensitive.

And no, the argument isn't "stop having fun", the argument is "don't force games that aren't fun on a controller to be on a controller". I can't imagine having fun with a fast mouse-driven game on the tiny touchpad on the Deck, or even in the larger one on the Steam Controller. Or on a huge Macbook touchpad or on ANY touchpad. They don't need to be coaxed to work poorly on a mediocre replacement when they work great on the native control setup they're designed for. A few cases overlap enough to make things work well enough, but then the lack of an overengineered dual touchpad setup is not the limiting factor because there are so many alternatives in modern devices, from motion controls to touchscreens and paddles.

The touchpads were always a solution looking for a problem, even when controllers were a lot simpler. Now they're a sub-par solution looking for a problem.

Out of curiosity, what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller? Because I've tried that (it was 2015, I had just gotten a Steam Controller and didn't know any better) and it's one of the least pleasant gaming experiences I can imagine. Did you really do that on purpose or is this a hypothetical?

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Chords, button combos and controller layers can be combined into surprisingly complex setups.

Ah yes, complex and hard-to-remember controller mappings, so much easier than: put thumb on pad -> make selection. Great point lmao. No one is saying that you can't rig up solutions for controller, just that they are difficult to use and less payable than just using the touchpad. This very thing is probably what is driving you away from playing these games on Deck back to your computer or keyboard-lapboard gadget thing.

Probably too complex, unless you like playing Steam Input more than you like playing your game, but definitely very capable of doing as much as the left pad.

I agree 100%

Which, by the way, can be mapped to a radial menu and that's about it

You underestimate how powerful Steam Input is, weirdly. Lmao

what RTSs do you play on the Deck or the Steam Controller?

Manor Lords. Total War games are great too. Civilization is turn based but still the same input mechanics and is much better on the TV due to the touchpads. Management games have all the same input mechanics as RTS but different gameplay, the obvious example is Rimworld, but also things like Zoo Tycoon and Cities: Skylines. All of these are totally playable, and several I, personally, prefer on the couch

“don’t force games that aren’t fun on a controller to be on a controller”

except they are fun and 100% playable, thanks to the touchpads. This is just what we actually disagree on, and MANY people agree with me here and use the Steam Deck to play these games, it isn't some obscure or niche opinion, and its a major discriminator between the Steam Deck and other handhelds that are lacking in these input features

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I mean, "MANY" in relation to, say, how many people would show up to someone's birthday party. Not "MANY" as in "the size of a videogame audience". We kinda know that for a fact. For reference, Steam does show the most played games on Deck. The first game with no official controller support shows up at 79. It's The Sims 4. For what it's worth, the two most used Steam Input configs do use the trackpads, but they just map the right one as a mouse and have the left one mapped to four directional functions. If your argument for the dual trackpads was simplicity, let me tell you, both of these configs are complete spaghetti, so I don't think that holds much water.

Rimworld is in there, suprisingly, in the 80s. Made me count all the way there, they should really put numbers on that list. Those seem to be the sole two mouse-driven entries. There are no RTS games, tycoon games or city builders that I can see.

In any case, you're right that we agree on whether playing strategy games on a touchpad is fun. It really is not.

By the way, you do realize your counter to the radial menu thing was a screenshot of a radial menu, right? The fact that it's using squares doesn't change how that works (except for how a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu, but that's neither here nor there).

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I mean... for any game in the top 500 on Steam Deck... That sure would be one hell of a birthday party. You must have no concept of how big of a number 4 million is and how many people are playing these games on Deck...

Do you just not know what a radial menu is? The grid layout fits as many things as you configure it to, and the layout and arrangement of squares are fully configurable, which can be more useful and contextual than a radial menu... you should really watch that video I linked above, especially if you have time to spend counting games in the steam list lmao

a grid layout actually fits fewer things than a radial menu

Area scales faster than perimeter/circumference. You are literally, mathematically, incorrect. 36 buttons in a grid would still be readable and usable, with only 6 buttons per row, while 36 slices of a circle would be an unreadable squished mess with 9 items in each quadrant... That radial menu would likely need to be the size of the screen

And for the record, its not really a surprise or supportive of your argument that controller-first games are more popular, given that the Steam Deck also works great for controller-first games... like... duh?? That doesn't prove the point you think it does

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Granblue Relink is just about closing that top 100 and has about 650 players right now. That's not on Deck, that's across all of Steam.

That's a big birthday party, but not an all-timer.

I know what a radial menu is. The menu you sent is a nine square grid, which is a neutral spot surrounded by eight directional inputs. So a radial menu.

You can make other menus, but you just happened to send me a radial menu, specifically. Which I suspect was chosen there because, like I said, the small touchpad at best suits a radial menu or a directional menu.

And the point isn't that controller-first games are more popular, it's that mouse-first games are quite unpopular. Several big mouse-first games are in the overall most played list but not on the Deck list. Others appear lower. DOTA 2, for one, which is at the top of the overall and nowhere to be seen on the Deck top 100.

And yeah, when somebody argues something iffy in an online discussion I'm the kind of person to go and check. I don't mind being wrong that much, but I do want to know.

Homework.

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Granblue Relink is just about closing that top 100 and has about 650 players right now. That’s not on Deck, that’s across all of Steam.

So a completely different measure than what is used for ranking Great on Steam Deck games...? 🤦 Comparison to concurrent users just isn't valid because Great on Steam Deck ranking aren't measured by concurrent users...

it’s that mouse-first games are quite unpopular

Evidence needed. Also, did you purposely leave out the fact that Civ VII is literally #2 trending on the Deck right now because it proves you argument wrong or...?

I don't mind being wrong that much

That's certainly convenient for you lol

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's a different measure because Valve does not disclose full install counts at all, let alone per hardware type, but it does provide concurrent users. I work with what I have. In any case, the top of the list is in the hundreds of thousands of concurrent users, so that does show that the top 100 on Deck does run the gamut until fairly low in usage. That's not a surprise, gaming is very winner-takes-all right now, particularly on PC. Steam user counts drop VERY quickly, so your argument that the top 500 is all huge is not accurate.

As for Civ VII, I was going off the last top 100 list, which is yearly and thus covering a period before the Civ VII launch, but Civ VI was actually there and I missed it. It shows up at 37. That's now 3% of the list that is mouse driven. I stand corrected. You're still wrong.

By the way, speaking of using different metrics, "trending" games aren't built on absolute numbers, so top played and trending don't line up at all. I'm assuming Civ VII will make the cut on Deck whenever it does get counted on absolute usage, though.

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Makes invalid comparisons based on incompatible measures and draws incorrect conclusions

You're still wrong.

😂

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

None of the measure are incompatible, none of the conclusions are incorrect and you're still wrong.

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Alrighty, then! If you say so

continues enjoying keyboard and mouse games on Steam Deck like most users, as Valve intended

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Not most users, not even as Valve intended (on the Deck, at least).

They literally reserved the green "Verified" badge for games with full controller support and are the only ones eligible for the "Great on Deck" tab. Mouse and Keyboard games get the yellow "Playable" tag instead and a warning on boot.

See, that's the sad part about actually looking things up. It takes time, people get to nitpick it to death and then some guys will just... you know, say stuff.

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Lmao "Playable" tag...

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It means official full controller support with the default config. There are few games that provide official controller support over Steam Input in the first place, even fewer that have any touchpad custom inputs by default and I'm not even sure if there are any that are Steam Verified. At a glance it's... what, just Rimworld again? Maybe some first party stuff left over from the Steam Machines fiasco? Sims is only Playable. Civ VII, which you called out earlier, I suspect incorrectly, has official all-stick support, what with having launched on consoles day and date. I haven't checked it because I haven't bought it yet, so if I'm wrong let me know. Civ VI doesn't have default controller support, but it's only Playable as well. In fact, if you have a list of verified games with touchpad default support I'd love to see it. I'm genuinely curious.

Look, you get to live in this very specific alternate reality where the only difference is people love dual touchpads as a main input system. That's fine, you're not hurting anybody. I get hung up on it because blatant misrepresentations on social media are fairly upsetting these days and because I'm still not over having had to use the dumb touchpads on the Vive for a couple of years back there.

But man, is it exhausting to watch it act as a proxy of some much more important crap in real time.

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Wow this "alternate reality" seems pretty immersive:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SteamDeck/comments/td9inr/how_good_are_the_touchpads/

My experience with them has been pretty great. I was able to play a mouse and keyboard game with them without issue (in my case, the games I tested this with were Planet Zoo and FrostPunk). From my experience in the past with Steam controller, it’s the same if not better.

People have been playing every type of game out there with the Steam Controller for years. The efficacy of trackpads is self-evident.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1675200/discussions/0/4353368616863474991/

I like to use them for typically very mouse-oriented games, like RTS and point-n-click adventures. They also help make navigating the desktop mode a snap.

Trackpads are highly underrated as inputs for the simple reason that there are two

the ones on the steam controller were perfect

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/steam-deck-valve-gaming-handheld

the touchpads work great as a mouse replacement in games like Civilization VI, which was surprisingly playable on the Steam Deck.

Gee, what kind of "homework" did you even do? These were the top 3 search results for "steam deck trackpad review", skipping over a Reddit post titled " Steam Deck Trackpads are Actually Good" which was the #2 search result

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Hah. Man, you were fuming about that one for a while, huh?

I said at the very tippy top of this thread that

I know some people swear by them, I just don't think they're worth the space they take up as a pointer device

and later

People who like these do tend to be loud and proud about it, so they stand out more

It's no surprise that there are people swearing by them loudly and proudly. In fact, there are more people doing that than the opposite, because most people just... you know, ignore the whole thing altogether and haven't through about the Steam Controller in a decade.

The reason I was pulling quotes for you is that you denied the touchpad reception in the OG Controller was mixed and that Valve was presenting them as a stick substitute, which was demonstrably incorrect.

[–] theunknownmuncher@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What was I "fuming" about...? Wdym?

"Everyone around me says they have positive experiences with the touchpads! They're the ones that are wrong and I am right, because... the real people just ignore them and don't post about it!!!"

Lmao. Yeah, I'm the one in an alternate reality here...

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 2 days ago

Not everybody around me. Nobody around me has ever mentioned a touchpad outside of threads about the touchpad. It's not a thing.

Everybody on Steam seems to be playing controller games on sticks, though. At least from the data Steam shares. Which matches reviews at the time (and later, when people had to pay attention to them on the Deck), the way games on Deck are put together by devs, the low sales of the Controller, the changes to the Vive controller, the lack of other hardware manufacturers doing dual touchpads and pretty much every other piece of info at scale we have beyond anecdote.

Man, online chatter sucks and does bad things to people. I think I'm done with this. Have fun with the dual pads Valve bestowed upon you. I don't need you to change your mind about their popularity, but man, there's going to be a Smithers moment for you at some point on something else and it sure would be good if you thought back to this.

Ta.