Fediverse
A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).
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Defederation is an important tool and is part of what makes the fediverse work. In my experience, people who are strongly defederation averse are mostly either quite new to the fediverse or have the relative privilege of never having to really deal with bad actors especially en masse.
I'm not new to this, though usually not very active poster. so yes I have not experienced much harassment tbh.
If an instance you’re in defederates, just start your own. Why complain about what people want to do in their instances? Just find another one.
Yes, that’s exactly how you sound.
Defederation is a feature, not a weakness.
Glad you said this. People demanding large instances like this one defederate from stuff they don't personally like are, frankly, very mislead and trying to be little dictators. That's not their decision to make.
Copying this from another comment I made. Defederating would pretty much cut off a lot of potential new users that want to see posts on Threads while also not wanting to have a Meta account and all the issues that come with it. People here need to realize that they are in an echo chamber. Mastodon and Lemmy needs users and content. Cutting a big portion of that would kill it in the long run. There would be nothing to "extinguish" in the first place in their complaints of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
Exactly, I have a lot of normie friends that use threads, I don't want to use it but would love to interact with them. Best of both worlds
if you interact with them, you’re “using” threads
Can you elaborate?
I would have phrased it as "supporting" Threads. If you don't defederate, Threads will take over your instance. Either directly through the sheer amount of posts, or indirectly by colluding with your instance admins. Or both. It's how they operate. And then the ads and data harvesting and walled gardens will come.
Defederating would pretty much cut off a lot of potential new users that want to see posts on Threads while also not wanting to have a Meta account and all the issues that come with it.
Kinda the point, no? Kill Threads in the cradle by denying it access to the fediverse.
But what do you do when a known Dictator walks in?
Meta is going to establish itself, and go back to old habits once it's on top in the fediverse.
Part of being free and accessible for everyone is allowing defederation.
Aren’t the people demanding that no instance ever defederate for any reason and that defederation shouldn’t be allowed the ones who have an inner dictator that needs to be tamed? I thought the entire point of things being decentralized is that individual instances can operate the way they want, including choosing which other instances to federate with. But for some reason, this freedom shouldn’t be allowed? Am I missing something here?
If you cared enough to read my post (or comments under maybe) you would've seen that I have no problem with defederation in general. My issue is defederation of general instances with 10s of thousands of users for literally no reason but FUD. If you can prove that some other instance is harmful, you should definitely consider defederating
I read your post, which equated calls for defederation to being a dictator.
no instance ever defederate for any reason
did I say this?!
Also advocating for defederation (censorship) on an instance with 100K users is dictatorship. specially when you can't prove that said instance is harmful.
Dictatorship would be one single authority over all instances telling each instance what they can, cannot, and must do. Individual instances choosing who to federate or defederate with when people are free to choose whichever instance they want to be a part of (including being a part if multiple instances simultaneously with different accounts) is nothing at all like a dictatorship. It’s not even censorship like you claim. Nothing is stopping you from joining an instance that still federated with instances that another instance has defederate from. Or starting your own instance and making these decisions for yourself.
Why did I say “no instance defederate for any reason”? Because instances that have defederate have given reasons, and they naysayers like you are not only saying they shouldn’t be allowed to do that, but that doing so is “censorship” and “dictatorship”. I think you need a dictionary because you don’t seem to know what certain words mean.
No one is stopping you to migrate from an authoritarian country either (most of the time) and yet they're called authoritarian. Also, I'm not saying instances “shouldn’t be allowed to defederate”, I'm saying advocating for this on a general instance with 100K users is wrong. If this was a niche or small community with agreed upon and shared values (like beehaw for example) that would be understandable.
Saying things like “Oh, But You Can Run Your Instance” is dismissive of the issue, There's literally no option to migrate accounts and expecting average users to deal with this mess is beyond me.
Did you really just equate trying to leave an authoritarian country with signing up for a different federated instance? Every post you make just further confirms that you don’t know what the words “dictator” and “authoritarian.”
Also, I’m not saying instances “shouldn’t be allowed to defederate”, I’m saying advocating for this on a general instance with 100K users is wrong. If this was a niche or small community with agreed upon and shared values (like beehaw for example) that would be understandable.
First of all, this is probably some nuance you should have provided in your original post where you only say that calling for defederation makes you a “dictator” and in no way indicate that there are situation where you think defederation is appropriate. I don’t have time to read your entire posting history just to determine where you’re actually coming from. You could have probably included this nuance in your original post and avoided some of the backlash you are getting.
But second of all, how would you enforce what you are proposing? If larger instances were prevented somehow from defederating, wouldn’t that require some sort of “authority” making that decision for those instance? That doesn’t seem to align with your values based on what you’ve posted.
Did you really just equate trying to leave an authoritarian country with signing up for a different federated instance?
Yes I am, you are suggesting I don't know the meaning of these words, so I've provided an example of the exact same situation (importance doesn't change meaning of words here, does it?)
If you censor me, you have censored me! The fact that you're a government or admin of instance doesn't change word's meaning.
this is probably some nuance you should have provided in your original post where you only say that calling for defederation makes you a “dictator” and in no way indicate that there are situation where you think defederation is appropriate.
In hindsight, I should've but in response to most comments I've acknowledged that it's fine in a lot of situations
But second of all, how would you enforce what you are proposing? If larger instances were prevented somehow from defederating, wouldn’t that require some sort of “authority” making that decision for those instance? That doesn’t seem to align with your values based on what you’ve posted.
May I ask what made you think I'm looking for enforcement here? I believe in human coordination and freedom of choice. If I join a general instance, I don't expect admins to decide who I can interact with, that's all!
Then what exactly is your proposed solution? Just more complaining and name-calling like you have been?
Yes I am, you are suggesting I don’t know the meaning of these words, so I’ve provided an example of the exact same situation (importance doesn’t change meaning of words here, does it?)
This is just fucking ridiculous. If you really think signing up for another instance actually requires the same amount of effort as leaving an authoritarian country (while doubling down to clarify that they are EXACTLY THE SAME) means that I am probably just a masochist for continuing to engage with you.
Social Consensus! This should be part of the culture that unless some instance is factually harming us or content there is illegal (for jurisdiction of the hosted instance) we should not defederate.
Well, ultimately, that’s just like, your opinion man. Besides that you think people are dictators when they propose defederation (sometimes)
Well, it was always my opinion! No one's opinion is a fact, necessarily. Let's agree to disagree! glhf
I was going to ask “don’t you want to try to bring people over to your point of view for the sake of building a social consensus?” and then I remember that you called those people “dictators” so I guess not.
At this point I'm getting bad vibes from you TBH! I've expressed my opinion and apparently some people find it compelling and some disagree, that's fine!
The feeling is mutual, as I’ve had bad vibes about you since your original post!
But no one is forcing you to comment! You've expressed your opposition and I respect your opinion!
And as someone who has family that had to escape the Soviet Union, I don’t respect your opinion that what they went through is “exactly the same” as making an account on a different instance!
And as someone who lived most of my life under an authoritarian regime, I don't respect your advocation for censorship. If you knew the effect of thinking you know better than anyone and can decide for them, you would never make such comments.
And as someone who cares about the meanings of words, I don’t agree with you that defederarion is censorship, especially to the point of insisting it’s literally exactly the same as government censorship of its citizens!
We are trying to prevent a repeat of Google with xmpp.
This and having a fuckton of scummy users being sent our way by accounts like Libs of TikTok. Harassment will be unbearable and large-scale, especially for tiny instances.