this post was submitted on 28 Jan 2024
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[–] N0body@sh.itjust.works 76 points 8 months ago (8 children)

Trump is even worse than Biden on Gaza. I get trying to push Biden to do better, but let’s all keep the truth in mind. The actual truth, not the click bait bullshit horse race covered by the media.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 41 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (15 children)

Electoral pressure is literally the only lever we have to push Biden to do better. There's no other way. Biden's team is making a bet that we aren't serious and that they can just use Trump to hold us hostage in the party.

So! No ceasefire, no votes. If this war is still going on by November, and Netanyahu has been saying it will, I will not vote for Biden.

It's so easy to earn our votes! Why is Biden sabotaging his own campaign?

[–] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 8 months ago (16 children)

Electoral pressure is literally the only lever we have to push Biden to do better. There’s no other way.

This is correct, barring revolution.

Biden’s team is making a bet that we aren’t serious and that they can just use Trump to hold us hostage in the party.

You are incorrect. Biden's team, under the direction of the Democrat party, have taken away your lever because they don't want to win. The Democrats have said this, publicly. They said back in 2016 that they would rather lose to Trump than win with Bernie. The Democrat party is happy to lose, always.

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[–] snek@lemmy.world 33 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (6 children)

Trump is worse than Biden on anything and everything. But if any president can get away with supporting a genocide campaign, is this not the way they get away with it? By simply claiming it will ruin their campaign efforts?

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[–] sylver_dragon@lemmy.world 30 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Unfortunately, the Democrats keep going back to the well of "what are you going to do, vote for the other guy?" Their success on this has been hit or miss the last few cycles. In fairness, it's been a viable strategy in the past, if Democrats can get those few persuadable voters in the middle of the political spectrum to vote Democratic and not Republican, that's a net win for the Democratic candidate. But, that begs the question of "are there enough persuadable voters left to offset losses when parts of your base stay home?" With Biden's continued support for Israel's actions, it seems that their political calculus says, "yes".

However, we've seen this go both ways in the last few cycles. Clinton deployed the tactic in 2016 and commenters were out in force to brow-beat any of the deplorables who offered anything less than a full-thoated support of her turn. It got her the popular vote, but that has never mattered, she lost the election. The "vote blue no matter who" force was on full display again in 2020 and managed to eek out a win. And here you are again, ramping up for 2024. It's going to be interesting to see how it works out this time.

Biden in 2020 had the advantage of being somewhat unknown. Everyone knew him as Obama's Vice President and that provided him some of Obama's popularity. This time around, he's much more of a known quantity and he's going to be running on his own record. Brow-beating people with "anyone but Trump" seems less likely to work when voters may be looking at specific policies and actions which they find at odds with their beliefs. When Biden was more of an unknown, it was easy for voters to map their own views onto him. We see this with polls which include "generic Democrat/Republican" as an option. People map their own views onto the "generic" view and so are more supportive. When a candidate becomes a known quantity, support can drop off, as the voters know which areas they agree and disagree with a particular politician. In the same way, Biden's policies are now more understood by the voters and people may be less inclined to support him based on those policies.

Personally, I'm doubtful this sort of brow-beating is going to work this cycle. Biden's popularity isn't fantastic and he's too well known for people to map their views onto him. Moreover, responding to people being upset with his actions with a brow-beating seems like a poor response to peoples' legitimate issues. It seems more likely to convince them to disengage or push back even harder. Sure, what are they going to do, vote for the other guy? No, probably not, but they may also not show up on election day. And with the closely divided state of the US electorate, that might just be enough to swing things the other way.

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[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 21 points 8 months ago (12 children)

I get trying to push Biden to do better

Do you, as a group, though?

Every time someone posts an article about how it's a bad thing that Biden is actively contributing to a genocide, the top comment is Trump whataboutism.

Yes, Trump is much worse, both on Israel and in general, but that's not the fucking point!

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[–] P1r4nha@feddit.de 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

On foreign policy the US remains a genocidal bully with questionable morals and alliances. But domestically the Democrats present a veneer of somewhat moral, inclusive values. So with the presented choice I would recommend to go with the seemingly moral guy and try to hold him accountable, rather than vote for the fascist maniac that acts the same domestically and foreign.

Just hope you get locally active to organize a stronger left for the future.

[–] brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml 25 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Anyone who will support genocide overseas for their own domestic comfort doesn't deserve to be comfortable.

And you are not going to "hold him accountable" and you know it.

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[–] Anon6317@lemmy.ml 34 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Why does CNN put genocide in quotes in the article after the international court has already ruled that the actions in Gaza meet the definition?

[–] snek@lemmy.world 24 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

"Journalistic integrity"

PS: but also what the other person said.

[–] kibiz0r@midwest.social 19 points 8 months ago

Technically, they only ruled that genocide is plausible enough to hear the case (and that South Africa has a right to bring the case).

[–] Bleach7297@lemmy.ca 27 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Guys. Vote in your interests. Sure Biden might be a complicit war criminal but the other guy is a domestic criminal who would be an enthusiastic war criminal given half a chance.

Secure your country from the Putin's pet orangutan for another four years, then rake Biden across the coals.

If we're lucky, we won't have to deal with either of them in 2028.

[–] brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml 39 points 8 months ago (30 children)

Could Americans, just for once, take responsibility for their own shitty politicians and politics, rather than blaming it on foreigners? This “foreign agent” bullshit is basically the same kind of conspiracy theory scape goating that Republicans do with Qanon, and it’s just as fascist as anything Trump is saying.

[–] macabrett@lemmy.ml 15 points 8 months ago

I agree with you and I'd like to point out we've done studies and found that "Russiagate" in 2016 was a big nothingburger. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/01/09/russian-trolls-twitter-had-little-influence-2016-voters/

Democrats don't want to hear it, though, because it's a very convenient excuse for their own failings. Just like them blaming Bernie Bros, despite Bernie supporters voting for Clinton in larger numbers than Clinton supporters voted for Obama 8 years prior.

They simply don't want to take responsibility for their own actions (and inaction).

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[–] naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca 21 points 8 months ago (20 children)

So... When your choices are between two war criminals, your first thought isn't that the system needs change but that we should vote for the war criminal with a track record of war crimes?

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[–] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 16 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (11 children)

Remember when the professionals were saying that Trump was an incompetent fascist and we should be worried about is the competent fascist that would come after him? Biden is that competent fascist. If Trump did half of what Biden did, it would be because he fucked it up half way.

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[–] snek@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago (1 children)

When will sweet death take them?

[–] Tier1BuildABear@lemmy.world 17 points 8 months ago

Hopefully before it takes us

[–] Leviathan@lemmy.world 16 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Imagine thinking you'll even be able to legally protest if Trump is president.

[–] PanArab@lemmy.ml 22 points 8 months ago
[–] Tinidril@midwest.social 20 points 8 months ago (7 children)

Is this what we can expect for every criticism of the Biden administration for the next year? All you are really telling swing voters is that their opinion is irrelevant. What do you think that will do for turnout? Why do you think the administration itself isn't making use of this brilliant electoral strategy? When Trump wins, you can thank the guy in the mirror.

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[–] brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (10 children)

Trump was president!

My god, liberals really are all like the guy from Memento

Meanwhile, Pelosi is calling for anyone protesting their genocide to be investigated as Russian agents.

[–] Leviathan@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

And when he was president he regularly tried to outlaw protests, tear gasses them, etc. Not to mention a Trump presidency costed Roe v Wade and stacked the supreme Court with bought and sold Christofascists. I didn't say he never was president, I said he'll straight up outlaw protests the next time he is, which he was well on his way to doing the last time.

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[–] Anti_Face_Weapon@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Trump would probably bomb the shit out of Palestine.

[–] snek@lemmy.world 20 points 8 months ago (8 children)

Then the result is the same. Thanks, Biden.

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