this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2023
85 points (90.5% liked)

Fediverse

28496 readers
613 users here now

A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).

If you wanted to get help with moderating your own community then head over to !moderators@lemmy.world!

Rules

Learn more at these websites: Join The Fediverse Wiki, Fediverse.info, Wikipedia Page, The Federation Info (Stats), FediDB (Stats), Sub Rehab (Reddit Migration), Search Lemmy

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

For-profit tech companies like #Threads and #Flipboard are beginning to implement #ActivityPub, and that's been causing a lot of chaos lately. Thus, I've found it helpful to take a step back, consider what it is about the fediverse that I value, and think about whether federation with these large platforms will bring us closer to or further from those goals.

With that in mind, I've come up with a few statements (in no particular order) that describe what I think is an "ideal" fediverse:

  1. No actor controls a large portion of visible activity.
  2. Users can move between instances without penalty.
  3. Creating and running an instance requires minimal effort.
  4. People on or entering the fediverse understand the variety of available options.
  5. There is no downside to using free and open-source platforms over proprietary ones.

While this ideal fediverse isn't necessarily realistic or achievable, I'd like to see instance owners act in the interest of these principles. These definitely aren't comprehensive and are of course my opinion, so what do you think an ideal fediverse looks like? Do you think these statements are good goals to aim for or not?


Now, to elaborate:

No actor controls a large portion of visible activity.

This is important for instances to be able to defederate from those with bad moderation, harmful values, etc. If a person or group controls a big portion of the content that people see on an instance, then that instance will lose a lot of that content should they defederate. That person or group would essentially be able to do whatever, and instances would find difficulty defederating because they'd lose so much visible activity and thus users.

If a single entity gets enough dominance over activity, they could make defederation from them out of the question for a ton of users. Furthermore, that entity could cripple the fediverse by simply leaving it, taking a bunch of users from other instances with them. This is a big concern many people have with Threads; if 90% of the activity you see on mastodon.social comes from Threads, then Meta would be able to nab a ton of mastodon.social users by leaving the fediverse, facing those users with the choice of either losing a ton of their connections & follows or jumping ship to Threads.

But you don't even need a supermajority of content to cause that much harm. For example, take the threadiverse (Lemmy/Kbin). A large portion of visible activity is controlled by the admins of lemmy.world. Thankfully, they seem to nice people, but if they were to start (for example) being more lax with hate speech, other Lemmy/Kbin instances would either have to deal with it or lose access to a large portion of the activity pool. If any threadiverse instance were to defederate from lemmy.world — even if the lemmy.world admins started acting against the interests of the fediverse and its users — that instance would lose a dangerous number of users.

Users can move between instances without penalty.

One of the main benefits of the fediverse is that you can move to a different instance and still be able to view the same content. If the admins of your instance start making moderation decisions you disagree with or you just decide that you want to be on an instance that you yourself run, you're able to move and still interact with the content pool. Thus, as long as the platform your destination instance uses (e.g., Firefish, Kbin, Mastodon) supports the same type of content as your old one, you should be able to move without any downsides. The more penalty there is for moving, the more people will feel trapped on an instance even if they want to leave.

This is partially a matter of robust systems for moving accounts, but it's also a matter of having good options available. Mastodon has a ton of active, stable instances, so if you ever want to move (e.g., because your instance is or isn't defederating from Threads), you can do so and still be able to use Mastodon. However, the only such instance on Kbin is kbin.social (not counting instances that run Mbin, a fork with different features & development). If you want to move from kbin.social to another Kbin instance, you don't really have a lot of options. And if you're on something that's closed-source, you'll be forced to move to a different platform entirely, which may not be great for the user — an important reason why free and open-source software should be prominent on the fediverse.

Obviously, this is something that might be impossible to achieve. But even if we can't eliminate the strings attached to moving to another instance, we should try to minimize them.

People can create and run their own instances to their liking with minimal effort.

If a user wants to, they should be able to control their interactions on the fediverse through running their own instance, and doing so should require as little effort as is feasible. Many people have already set up single-person instances for the purpose of having more control over their data. If people can't do that, then they're forced to put their account and content under the control of other people. Of course, most people are fine with this provided that they trust their instance admins, but the option to be your own admin should be as available as possible.

This is part of why it's so important to have prominent open-source platforms. If Mastodon weren't open-source, then anyone who likes Mastodon but wants to control their content would be out of luck. If you like the Threads interface but don't want to be on an instance run by Meta, you just don't have that option.

People on or entering the fediverse understand the variety of available options.

If someone isn't aware that they're on the fediverse, then they can't really benefit from the openness and customizability that it provides. A mastodon.social user who knows nothing of the fediverse won't know that they can move to a different Mastodon instance or interact with the same content using Friendica, as they won't know that the options exist to begin with.

Furthermore, people will have more incentive to preserve an open fediverse if they're aware that it exists. If the fediverse is filled with people who, for example, think that Threads is all there is or didn't come to Threads with an awareness of the fediverse, the fediverse becomes much easier to undermine.

There is no downside to using free and open-source platforms over proprietary ones.

If someone wants to join a closed-source instance run by a for-profit company, they should absolutely be able to. However, that should ideally be because they prefer an instance moderated by Meta, not because the free and open-source alternatives are relatively lacking. Open-source software is extremely important in order for users to have options and agency, so we should aim for these factors to not come with a sacrifice. Otherwise, companies will be able to draw most newcomers to their instance and attain a large share of the content on the fediverse, which is bad as discussed with Statement #1.

Going by this principle, if the owner over a closed-source fediverse platform starts trying to create exclusive functionality that would attract people their instance, they should be regarded with extreme caution. If you're familiar with the whole "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" thing, a company doing such would be the "Extend" phase of EEE, and that's a situation we should avoid at all costs.

top 29 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] s38b35M5@lemmy.world 26 points 11 months ago

I'm pleased with activityPub beginning to make "protocols not platforms" a reality.

[–] NightAuthor@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Any chance you work in acadamia?

I didnt read the whole thing, but this gave me research publication vibes.

[–] ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social 19 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Nah, just some teen making very inefficient use of his time

[–] schmorpel@slrpnk.net 10 points 11 months ago

That is some excellent writing - I went through a little of it and found it well laid out. I'd say you make very efficient use of your time and this is an important contribution for the fediverse, keep doing you!

[–] NightAuthor@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Idk, maybe theres something there. Sociology research, tech research… something along those lines might interest you.

See if there are any papers by researchers in your area on similar topics. You can search google scholar. And maybe reach out.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

"Double teen" here doing the same thing lol

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 12 points 11 months ago (3 children)

It seems to me that the "chaos" caused by those implementations has been entirely in how people reacted to them.

[–] Eldritch@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

The chaos, as is almost always the case. Is generally being caused by people's ignorance. People are not wrong to dislike the likes of meta or even Google. But to think that they are going to be able to take over the feddiverse. Or do anything resembling what they do on their own platforms to people on other platforms. Just expresses a deeper lack of understanding.

It's not wrong however to distrust them.

[–] ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social 2 points 11 months ago

Of course, these platforms have only federated a handful of accounts, so the "chaos" right now is in the reaction and discourse. However, I don't think it's unjustified.

I've outlined my main issues with Threads federation here, and while I'm not as sold on preemptive defederation as I was when I made the post, I still find it reasonable to be concerned about about for-profit companies controlling a vast majority of the content, especially when (A) the users making that content may be unaware that they're on the fediverse to begin with and (B) companies like Meta have a terrible track record and would have incentive to grab a ton of users by defederating if they're able (though with so many other parties joining in, whether they'll be able to pull something off like that is becoming more questionable, hence me being less sure of the need to defederate).

[–] AustralianSimon@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Storm in a teacup, yep.

[–] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Suggestions 2, 3, 4 might be doable with a lot of development effort and co-ordination amongst the FLOSS community.

Even people without any coding experience at all can write guides and set up simple webpages to help people understand the fediverse, recommend it to their friends and encourage spreading out on the platform instead of coalescing around the biggest instances.

Suggestions 1 and 5, while noble goals I don't know how that would be possible at all. People tend to be incentivized to pay for things if they offer value that can't otherwise be attained. For the former, how do we enforce a multi-billion dollar company to play by the rules of the miniscule federation we are? To many, the answer is to not entertain them in the first place.

[–] CrayonMaster@midwest.social 2 points 11 months ago

I mean, they're doable, but they're cultural goals, not technical ones.

I'd argue that really all of these are on a spectrum between the two though.

[–] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 5 points 11 months ago

every bullet point here would apply to SMTP and would negate your entire idea of EEE. but thats just me comparing a protocol to a protocol.

except of course

There is no downside to using free and open-source platforms over proprietary ones.

because reality says software is hard, it just is. and cutting edge software is painful.

i just see a ton of people knee-jerking into the wind with a ton of maybes but zero knowledge because the horse aint in yet.

if you cant allow partial federation or full federation while keeping an eye on dependency, then you shouldnt be running an instance anyway.

[–] Marsupial@quokk.au 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think an important aspect is that it user owned. No corporations involved in any form.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Do "we" control that, like if I'm with Lemmy.world, we can ~~defederate~~ simply never federate them at all if we want right? And there's technically no way Meta can fuck with that if we make that choice, right?

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Again, social vs technical. You „can“ but you loose 90% of activity. The users who grew accustomed to your level of activity will see a barren wasteland which is what OP describes.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

We were already without that activity because Meta was late to the game. I would ask you to reframe your response in light of that.

Like how does it hurt us if we never had it to begin with and wouldn't its effect only be contingent on the extent to which we are ok with or "our" attitude towards growth (and how much growth)?

Edit: I guess I would sort of clasify myself as a content-creator or conversation-starter and I've never had issues with engagement and I always have random stuff I think of that I want to explore and put out there so I don't really see the issue I guess

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

While I trust you‘re asking honestly, this topic has already been discussed a ton of times:

We are in a very dire situation worldwide due to corporations ruling everything and keeping us from doing what is necessary (solving world hunger, climate change, wars).

Often we ask ourselves „how did we get here“ and the corporations (through public figures which they are paying) have an answer for you:

  • immigrants
  • the left
  • the right
  • politicians
  • yourself

And all of these answers do hold some truth depending on your view. But they’re all deflection. And its a long game. They do stuff that is pleasant, like making affordable smart tvs available. But then they put ads in them that you cant turn off without tech knowledge.

Same with threads. We‘re not in dystopia yet with threads but we‘re asking a convicted child rapist to take care of our kids. Sure, nothing bad will come of it, right?

More precisely, it will take the fediverse about 3 months to get used to the 10x amount of engagement. After that it will be tremendously hard to defederate without a chunk of users.

Everyone who barely understands how mass psychology works can tell you this.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

list of deflections

Ya, I noticed its everything and everyone BUT the corporation that directly operates in whatever domain aha. Every time, it really does suck :(

Who's the convicted child rapist btw? You're not talking about Zuck are you or whoever runs Threads?

Also, we don't really disagree on anything...I don't think we should federate at all with anything Meta or any other group that has a history of Embracing/Extending/Eliminating or whatever. I feel like we're doing fine with whatever we have and are doing now.

Its all tops currently and I see no need to change our calculus or do anything but let FaceB/Met fuck themselves over in time as they always do

They can't singlehandedly or multi-handedly really do anything to kneecap the Fediverse, thats the whole freaking point of the Fediverse a d why we're all here + invested (if in time rather than money) in the first place 🤓

I would embrace and extend JFK's famous urging:

We have nothing to avoid/fear but dependance itself

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for the kind answer. This is fun. :)

The child rapist is a metaphor. We‘re not scared of our kids getting r*ped in this case but of us and the kids getting (among other things) manipulated to high heavens which meta has been convicted for again and again. Search for metas human rights violations and you will be serviced better than I could ever do.

You actually made me think of an idea. We could auto defederate any single instance that is more in size than the others combined. I‘d need to check the numbers but I don’t think we have this kind of situation rn.

If we made this a rule, corpos could split their giant places into instances which can then be federated and defederated individually. The idea is still a wip obviously.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Very cool ;) Yeah, maybe share that on c/Fediverse and your intance admins and maybe we can all figure out a workable solution.

I'd still prefer we avoid any dependance or engagement with Meta and other offenders. Thats always how they get you. They "change" and see the light but its all an act until they get strong enough/you're weak enough that they can finish the job.

And it would be on us cuz we tried to breast-feed/expected to breast-feed off snake and scorpions. No excuse for us to not be aware of their modus operandi and not immediately reject basically anything they touch

[–] haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You‘re absolutely correct. Meta isn’t really worth thinking about but having solutions for the future could be good.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

Solution: stay the fuck away from Meta. /theEnd

[–] kpw@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I like your considerations, but there are no conclusions on how users/admins/developers should act to achieve this ideal state.

[–] ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That's because I'm not fully sure on how people should act in respect to this Threads situation (which is what got me thinking about all of this in the first place). In the recent past, I was all "defederate defederate defederate defederate," but now considering that multiple large platforms (like Flipboard) will be joining in, it's less likely that one company will control a majority of activity. Of course, you don't need a majority for there to be a problem — just a large enough portion for other instances to have issues defederating due to the amount of content they'd lose — but a mere large portion and not a supermajority may not be reason to defederate. Of course, there are other things to consider as well, and I'll probably make yet another wall of text with my new thoughts on how instances should handle this in the near future. For now, this thread is for me to share the ideals that I think people on the fediverse should prioritize and for others to discuss what they think on the matter.

[–] kpw@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

So we should defederate because we will have issues defederating due to the amount of content we lose? Isn't that kind of self-contradictory?

[–] ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago

Let me try to explain a bit better.

Let's take an instance called Instance A. Instance A is currently on the fediverse, which we'll say is pretty evenly distributed. No instance has a large enough portion of users whereby others would have problems with activity loss if they defederated, which is good. If any instance starts doing things that Instance A doesn't agree with, they can defederate, and less activity won't be much of a concern with defederating from that single instance.

But now, let's take Instance B. Instance B is planning to implement ActivityPub and join the fediverse, and when it does so, it will control 80% of the activity. In other words, it has as much activity as the rest of the fediverse combined.

However, Instance B isn't particularly trustworthy. They don't value the open web like the rest of the fediverse does, their moderation is extremely poor, and they haven't cared for general well being in the past if it meant raising profits.

Here, Instance A and instances like it have two options: defederate immediately, or wait and see.

  • If it defederates immediately, Instance A will see some users move to other parts of the fediverse because they're excited about the 5x increase in activity from Instance B. They probably won't go to Instance B now, but maybe Instance C or D. However, a lot of people will be fine. After all, activity is staying the way it is, and Instance B is untrustworthy anyway.
  • If it waits and sees, this allows people on Instance A to enjoy and get used to the 5x increase in activity. Not bad so far.

However, let's say Instance B starts having moderation issues (e.g., widespread hate speech and more-than-usual spam) as everyone reasonably predicted. Instance A now wants to defederate.

  • If it defederated before, no problem! Nothing needs to be done.
  • If it didn't and wants to start defederation now, good luck. Now, everyone on Instance A has gotten used to the 5x activity on Instance B, and you're going to have an extremely difficult time convincing them to cut the activity they see and the users they follow by 80%. Way more people will leave Instance A if it defederates now than if it had just defederated early on.

In other words, if people on Instance A come to rely on Instance B for the activity they're used to, way more people will join the camp of "I'm leaving if you defederate with Instance B" then if Instance A just defederated from the get-go.

Let's take another example. Instance B wants to try to grab a bunch of users, so after some time, they stop federating at all.

  • If Instance A defederated, the people there are fine. They never saw stuff from Instance B anyway.
  • If Instance A didn't defederate, then 80% of the content that people are used to will suddenly be gone. Most of the accounts they follow will be disconnected, and activity will fall a ton. These users on Instance A will have two options: stay, with a horrendous drop in activity and no posts from the accounts they're most interested in; or just go to Instance B.
    In either case, Instance B will be fine. Most interaction was between Instance B users, so this won't be that much of a deal. But for users on other instances that are used to seeing stuff from B, it'd be catastrophic.

In short, defederating immediately has much smaller consequences than trying to defederate when whoever you want to defederate from controls most of the activity that your users see.

[–] ethan@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Honestly, BlueSky’s AT Protocol fixes pretty much all of these issues (save for having a single actor controlling things as for the moment it’s still in active development and not adopted by any other project).

Even if you never intend to sign up for or use their protocol, I’d give it a read- it’s a really fascinating system design:

https://atproto.com/guides/overview

[–] money_loo@1337lemmy.com -5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Sir, this is a Wendy’s.

*holy shit y’all took this post seriously, what kind of extremism left Reddit?!?