Eastern Europe: "we know already, and they (pointing westwards) are starting to get it".
this post was submitted on 17 Jan 2025
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We built NATO for this while goddamn reason, Kyiv just wasn’t available as a signatory at that time. It is now. Use the opportunity, before the USA is able to thwart it due to our current Foothold situation
ukraine has the second largest military in europe. if trump pulls the us out of nato, it may suddenly become an issue.
Not really. Europe's army is "small" because we have not been drafted.
Populations:
- Europe: 450 million
- Russia: 150 million
- Ukraine: 35 million
Defending countries will draft most of their people, while the attackers draft far less. Countries that are not at war will simply not draft and will have a natural army size. (Which protects the country until people get drafted and trained)
There's no reason to compare apples and pears here.
Only people taking the draft actually seriously would be nations that have been at war or occupied with russia. For westerners russia is "that funny accent vodka nation" instead of the existential, genocidal torture enthusiast nation waiting to end you.
He's right.
Ukraine grows a LOT of grain. It's going to be a big problem when they stop providing Europe and the world.
Not a problem for Europe.
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/efscm-assessment-autumn-2023_en.pdf
On a more cynical note: Ukraine grows a lot of Russian obituaries, which the EU doesn't have to, should they try to invade the Baltics once they are successful in Ukraine.
I'm not certain why your point was downvoted (maybe the wording confused people)... but folks may grumble about paying extra taxes to financially support the Ukrainian army but that does not even compare to the rage governments would face if they started sending volunteer or drafted troops to fight the frontline.
It's incredibly cynical of course - but if Ukraine is willing to fight and die for European freedom for the low low cost of just some money its insane to reject their offer.
Russia will not stop at Ukraine. They may stop at the Polish border, but the Baltic states are absolutely within Putin's gaze.
if Ukraine is willing to fight and die for European freedom for the low low cost of just some money its insane to reject their offer.
Insane. It pisses me off no end that we haven't given them the tools to not just defend their freedom, but to win. Fuck your fear of escalation. There are North Korean soldiers fighting a war of aggression in Europe.
Like how much more are we going to take?
all of it. Europe bought the lie of peace dividends, outsourced their defense to America, and elected weapons grade morons and co-conspirators like Burlesconi, Merkel and Orban, who opened the door for Putin to put Europe in a comprimising position once he decided to s tart shooting.
And now America wants out.
Europe's either going to have to prepare for war. or accept that Russia is going to get to do what it wants, and continue to ratfuck European politics with shit like Orban, Fico, and whatever the fuck BRUV is.
Based on prices increase for the last two years « because it’s from Ukraine »… either we are being fooled by big corps or Ukraine do produces 80% goods and food for Europe
Well, if you're from the EU, that would make sense. In America, we grow a lot of grain here in Canada and the US.
Eu is mostly self sufficient on base foods:
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/efscm-assessment-autumn-2023_en.pdf
If you look at fig. 4 on page 5, almost every meat source is above 100%, and fig 5 show most plant foods vary between 60-130%.
In the 70's the ECC which EU was called back then, turned European agriculture around from huge deficits to huge surpluses. To ensure self sufficiency in case of international destabilization. This resulted in enormous stockpiles, leading to a more balanced policy, which we seem to have achieved.
In short EU is NOT dependent on food from Ukraine, but others are.
We do import soy and maize, but have a surplus on grains.
The main shortfall in the EU is protein crops, not just soy but most of our lentils are from Canada, we're more of a pea continent and not really growing that many of them. It's unlikely that imports from the Americas will be cut off, though, and if they are then we still won't be anywhere close to famine but meat and milk products will become a lot more expensive.
True, but as it is now, farmers in EU are actually paid for NOT farming as much as they can. EU can increase production significantly within a year. But yes that would mean that prices would increase on some products, but I don't think it would increase very much on meat, although it would probably make fodder a bit more expensive.
EU has capacity for significant surplus production overall, and we could shift a lot of imported products to products grown in the EU.
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I think we should help Ukraine, but Russia would get their clock cleaned by European NATO (even without US).
and Europe would take catastrophic casualties in doing so.
America is an ocean away, and doesn't have to worry about war on their soil.
Europe on the other hand, can you honestly say that society is ready for events like Bucha on their soil? a Russian brigade breaks through the line, gets bogged down,isnt able to advance any further, so decides to loot , rape and mass murder the population before retreating?
Bucha and Mariupol is why the entire NATO strategy changed. it used to be that the baltics would effectively be surrendered temporarily while the European backbone mobilized, France Germany Poland etc. But thats no longer an option because intelligence knows that the Russian Soldiery, for lack of a better term, act like savage ghouls. and will put innocent men women and children to the sword for no reason other than spite.
and failing that, they will bomb a city to dust like they did to Mariupol, Bakhmut, and so many others
One thing Russia has infintely more experience than Europe, its people are used to the realities of war, Martial law, no rights, Resource scarcity, No protesting. they just behave like lemmings now. Its sad, but its an advantage.
European populations would be calling for an armistice and selling out countries on the periphery as soon as it started because they dont want to go to war.
Regardless, I’d rather we not test that theory. It doesn’t matter which side wins, we all would lose.
As long as the nuke is dropped on my head, I don't care.
I could use a break from all this winning tho
Putin has said as much, it is why he constantly reminds everyone of his nuclear arsenal and apparent willingness to end the world over small matters.
Small dick energy on Putins part.
Astroturfing orcs downvoting
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A good read: GILES, Keir, 2024. Who Will Defend Europe?. 24 October 2024. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9781911723486.
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