this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2024
1 points (100.0% liked)

Memes

46385 readers
152 users here now

Rules:

  1. Be civil and nice.
  2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
(page 4) 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] maxinstuff@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Punching down vs punching up

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago

Won't someone think of the poor billionaires?! 😭

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Bedu009@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago

What are you on about

[–] UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (3 children)

The former acted because he was personally affected by a person supporting exploitation within a liberal system, the latter leads an authoritarian regime that allowed their CEOs to do what they do until they got annoying for whatever reasons.

So if you want to talk objective results here, sure, one of them got a higher kill count. However, who has the moral high ground here is not even up to debate IMO

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

One has a 95% approval rate, which amounts to some 900 million working age adults alone, and is the leader of a party of over 93 million. His actions also don't stop there, but rather continue in the monumental BRI uplifting hundreds of millions in Africa and Central Asia, as well as the total eradication of poverty in China and the development of twice as much green energy than the rest of the world combined.

I liked Brian Thompson getting his due, absolutely, but let's fucking pipe down lmao. The point was if y'all want to really stick it to CEOs, you better start organizing so y'all can get em in a way the pigs would be helpless to stop.

allowed their CEOs to do what they do until they got annoying for whatever reasons.

Again, libs just going by vibes and absolutely zero investigation, let alone evidence.

[–] TimeNaan@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Ah yes, just like every beloved dictator ever he has over 90% approval, just trust him, the statistic is surely real!

Authoritarians really have zero critical thinking skills.

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

The authoritarian Harvard and Pew polls which reported such a number? Lmao yall are so brainwashed even if a million Chinese came up to you to tell you you'd be unconvinced. There's literally dozens of western polls which confirm it, it's not up for debate, denying it is as ridiculous as denying the existence of the moon.

Being incredibly adept at mental gymnastics isn't critical thinking. What part of parroting the headlines you get from corporate media says "critical thinking" to you? I feel super bad for my American comrades trying to organize and make things better when half the country is somehow even dumber than this.

[–] _lunar@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago

stormfront.world users downvoting facts when they don't fit their racist vibes smh

you hate to see it

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago

's more that liberals like yourself directly ignoring facts and statistics while blindly repeating vague and unsourced claims of "China Bad," because it lets you remain comfortable in your pre-existing worldview. Communists do not have such luxury, which is why they seemingly always have endless sources on hand. In your comment here, as an example, you discredit the CPC's approval with no source. However, if we ask Harvard themselves about the results of their study, they say "We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. Second, the attitudes of Chinese citizens appear to respond (both positively and negatively) to real changes in their material well-being, which suggests that support could be undermined by the twin challenges of declining economic growth and a deteriorating natural environment." This directly goes against your claims of "social credit" preventing this, moreover the "Orwellian Social Credit System" you hint at doesn't even exist, at least not in the manner you imply it does.

You are directly decieving yourself because you license yourself to. If you actually looked at real sources and didn't reject them reflexively, instead of accepting bourgeois media at face value, you'd sit much closer to where I do. You should read False Witnesses and Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of "Brainwashing." Both are excellent examples of why people don't change their minds when seeing indisputable evidence, they willingly go along with narratives that they find more comfortable. It explains the outright anger liberals express when anticommunism is debunked. That doesn't mean Communists don't do the same thing, but as we live in a liberal dominated west (most likely, assuming demographics) this happens to a much lesser extent because liberalism is that which supplies these "licenses" to go along, while Communism requires hard work to begin to accept. This explains the mountains of sources Communists keep on hand, and the lack thereof from liberals who argue from happenstance and vibes.

[–] iAvicenna@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The one which has the high approval rate has a very good working relationship with billionaires which kisses the government's feet, the type of government we will be seeing in the USA for the next four years.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (7 children)

So if the government is run by a party people greatly approve of and said party dominates billionaires, who otherwise run rampant in countries like the US, this is a good thing and the people love it. However, you also expect a Communist revolution in the US for the next 4 years? What on Earth kind of fanfiction is this? How on Earth is Trump going to wrangle billionaires under him when the entire US state apparatus is designed from the ground up to represent billionaire interests?

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] _lunar@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago

if by "annoying" you mean exploitative in ways that are tolerated in liberal systems but not in a sane, well-planned system that actually represents its people, sure

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Luigi acted out of emotional response to individual trauma of a horribly cruel system, but very little will fundamentally change. The PRC punishes billionaires guilty of massive crimes, such as massive corruption. Which one does have the moral high ground, the one executing of his own volition in a manner that won't change anything, or the justice system of another country repeatedly working in favor of the people?

I'd say neither, if you start framing it in terms of morals and not material improvements for the working class you accept that Luigi didn't change anything, just did what we all want to do. I'm against the.death penalty either way but I'd rather the working class be empowered overall.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

i used to feel badly blocking accounts

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If you're that shook just from somebody mentioning the commies I don't think you're gonna provide much in the way of productive discussion anyway, so, by all means.

[–] LeroyJenkins@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

what XJP/beijing does is authoritarianism under the guise of communism. Lemmy of all places would be fine with actual communism but authoritarian regimes are a no go.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago (22 children)

Pasting my comment from earlier:

Any "leftist" that thinks the fact that China has billionaires means it therefore isn't actually Socialist needs to read Marx and Engels. There are many such liberals here in these comments. Marx predicted Socialism to be the next mode of production because markets centralize and create intricate methods of planning. As such, he stated that folding private into the public would be gradual, and by the degree to which industry would develop. From the Manifesto:

The essential condition for the existence, and for the sway of the bourgeois class, is the formation and augmentation of capital; the condition for capital is wage-labour. Wage-labour rests exclusively on competition between the labourers. The advance of industry, whose involuntary promoter is the bourgeoisie, replaces the isolation of the labourers, due to competition, by their revolutionary combination, due to association. The development of Modern Industry, therefore, cuts from under its feet the very foundation on which the bourgeoisie produces and appropriates products. What the bourgeoisie, therefore, produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable.

In even simpler terms, from Engels in Principles of Communism:

Question 17 : Will it be possible to abolish private property at one stroke?

Answer : No, no more than the existing productive forces can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. Hence, the proletarian revolution, which in all probability is approaching, will be able gradually to transform existing society and abolish private property only when the necessary means of production have been created in sufficient quantity.

That doesn't mean billionaires are good to have, necessarily, either. It remains a contradiction, but not an uncalculated one. I highly recommend anyone here read China has Billionaires. As much as Marxists want to lower wealth inequality eventually as much as possible (insofar as thr principle "from each according to ability, to each according to needs applies, Marx was no "equalitarian" and railed against them), in the stage of developmemt the PRC is at this would get in the way of development, and could cause Capital Flight and brain drain. Moreover, billionaires provide an easy scapegoat that the USSR didn't have, and thus all problems of society were directed at the state. It's important to consider why a Marxist country does what it does, and not immediately assume you know better. The CPC has an over 95% approval rate, you can't just assume you know what's best.

The phrase "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is meant to depict higher stage Communism. Until that is possible, the answer becomes "to each according to his work," because as Marx said in Critique of the Gotha Programme:

these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.

At least take a consistent stance, if you believe the PRC to not be Socialist simply because it has billionaires either you disagree with Marx or you have flawed analysis. There are genuine Marxist critiques of the PRC that don't rely on nonsense. If you consider yourself a Marxist, correct your study. I have an introductory Marxist reading list if you need one.

load more comments (22 replies)

One is fat?

[–] r_se_random@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 month ago (9 children)

I wonder if it has anything to do with PRC's punishment towards citizens who have been critical of their government. Who knows man.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago

The people of the PRC approve of Beijing to a far greater degree than western countries, with an over 90% approval rate. If we ask Harvard themselves about the results of their study, they say "We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. Second, the attitudes of Chinese citizens appear to respond (both positively and negatively) to real changes in their material well-being, which suggests that support could be undermined by the twin challenges of declining economic growth and a deteriorating natural environment." This directly goes against claims of "social credit" preventing this, moreover the "Orwellian Social Credit System" hinted at doesn't even exist, at least not in the manner most think it does. Even more overtly, they state "Although state censorship and propaganda are widespread, our survey reveals that citizen perceptions of governmental performance respond most to real, measurable changes in individuals’ material well-being."

[–] Grapho@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (36 children)

Again, unfalsifiable nonsense, both A and the opposite of A are proof that China bad, no need for evidence.

What's more, why do they have to be critical? What are they missing from their lives? Their government actually works lmao. More than 700 million pulled out of poverty, corrupt officials at all levels get jailed or executed, most young people own their house, everyone has a job and very cheap food and cultural activities, as well as the best public transit in the world and well maintained infrastructure, not to mention billionaires keep their fucking mouths shut unless it is to pay lip service to the people's government.

You know who punishes their citizens, verifiably often and viciously? Say it with me: the USA. The Ferguson protesters were murdered one by one in the following months with no investigation, the occupy wall street organizers were detained by Homeland security, the black panther party was infiltrated and their leaders murdered by police whether openly or covertly, the Gaza protests had students beaten, arrested and tried en masse and the US passes new surveillance and protest crackdown laws every other day it seems.

And, on the opposite side, what good does "being allowed to be critical" do, in and of itself? About 30% of Americans approve of the government at any given time, corrupt officials are openly insider trading, passing laws for bribes that they don't even have to hide, and big business is allowed to KILL YOU FOR PROFIT.

You liberals are delusional, you buy that you live in the best country ever and shit is almost impossible to change for the better and assume the rest of us must have it so much worse, facts be damned.

load more comments (36 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments
view more: β€Ή prev next β€Ί