Agreeing the USA sucks isn't hard too swallow.
this post was submitted on 22 Nov 2024
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The PRC needs to return land it has unjustly conquered.
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Ok let's see which way this goes.
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From the KMT, from the Japanese, or from the feudal lords that re-established themselves during the Chinese Civil War?
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And those are like $10 mil apiece minimum, but no free lunch for YOUR unworthy poor children. They would rather pay $1000 to kill a foreign child than $1 to feed yours.
The $1000 comes from us and goes into their pocket... The $1 would come out of their pocket and into our kid's mouth... Although, we'd probably need to buy the food from them too so the $1 would still end up back in their pocket... But the point of the system is to take money out of our pockets and put it in theirs, not to take it out of one of their pockets and put it in their other pocket
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Would China not drop bombs if they faced no consequences and it benefited them?
Idk, they probably have had the opportunity sometimes, but they don't have the same military industrial complex as the USA pushing for it at every chance. So the cost benefit analysis is different. Quite often it doesn't benefit "the USA" as much as a few specific people within, and that mechanic doesn't exist in the same way for China.
What do you mean that mechanic doesn't exist in the same way for China? Are you talking like China has achieved a classless utopia situation?
No, the arms manufacturers just don't have the same level of influence over the government and armed forces that they do in America, and the people in the government who decide whether to drop bombs won't personally get rich if they buy more bombs.
That isn't something unique to China btw but basically almost every country except USA and a few others.
Do you think that dynamic wouldn't exist for any country, including China, that had as much world influence as the US does now?
Can you be more clear in your question?
My point is that the real hard-to-swallow pill for people like OP is that China is not a magical place where everyone just sings kumbaya all day. China is just like any other country comprised of humans that has existed ever, and would do the same things the US is doing now if they could. The only reason this meme is in any way accurate is that China can't realistically drop bombs like that, otherwise they would. Tankies like OP will defend imperialism all day long, as long as the imperialists say "Death To America!". If the US poofed out of existence today, there would be a power vacuum quickly filled by exactly the same sort of people that are dropping those bombs in the meme.
So I guess my question is "What's the point of pretending that China is any different?"
China is just like any other country comprised of humans that has existed ever, and would do the same things the US is doing now if they could.
Yeah, except they're different countries, made up of different people, with a different culture, with a pretty much fundamentally different kind of organizational structure governing them. I don't think "well, they'd probably do it too, if the US were gone" is a super convincing argument in favor of the US dropping bombs on people.
To be clear, I'm not in favor of dropping bombs on people. My argument is that saying "China isn't dropping any bombs" is silly. They would if they could and it would achieve a goal.
Human nature doesn't change just because you go over to the other side of the globe. History shows us that the wars over there haven't been any less bloody. Why are you proposing that human nature is fundamentally different now?
Why are you proposing that human nature is fundamentally different now?
Because I don't think it's human nature that people just inevitably drop bombs on on another as soon as they're given the opportunity to do so, and I think that's an extremely oversimplified view of both human nature and history, to think that's the case. I think, broadly, it depends on a lot of factors. Economic factors, normal economic realities, and the ability of the economic systems to self-regulate and feed information from the bottom to the top, and vice versa, as a result of their political structures. Cultural factors, like the base level of xenophobia present in a culture for other cultures, you know, to what degree that xenophobia shapes the economic realities or is shaped by the economic reality.
I think saying, oh, well, if china was the world hegemon tomorrow, they'd drop bombs as soon as they could, I don't even really think that passes the smell test. They'd still have to deal with the EU, with Russia, with the militaries of basically every force they'd want to contend with, and with their lack of as nearly of a well-funded military industrial complex. They've shown a much higher tendency to approach geopolitical situations with their huge amounts of economic leverage as a result of their manufacturing base rather than just using a big stick to get everything they want.
I don't see any reason why that would majorly change if the US were gone. If they were to pivot to military industrial capacity, there's a certain cost-opportunity there in terms of what it would take out of their economic capacity, and it wouldn't really be the same cost-opportunity that we have (or, mostly, used to have histrorically) in the US, since their public and private sectors are more fused than ours, so they're not benefiting from the natural efficiency of a large government organization in terms of overall savings, when that's basically what every corporation over there is, or, is more than over here. Why would they risk their position bombing the shit out of other nations when they could basically just not?
The belt and road initiative has already showcased their geopolitical approach. It's still something they use a military to protect in terms of infrastructural investments, but those infrastructural investments seem to me to be more significant than those of most western occupying forces, and seem to take a different fundamental stance in terms of technology. China's economy doesn't revolve, to the same extent as the US, around the extraction, control, and importation of cheap, sour, heavy, crude oil, from other nations, which can then be refined into much more valuable petroleum products in terms of shipping while the US positions itself as a middle-man between this extractive base and the rest of the world's energy market. China's built like 50 nuclear plants since like 2014-ish, we've built 2 new plants since the year 2000. That's obviously shaped by necessity, but that's also just a vastly different approach.
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Your kind of reasoning is called "projection". You are actually choking on that pill.
That's not projection, that's basic human behavior. Do you think modern China just magically poofed into existence, or were there maybe a few bloody imperalist wars involved? Why would things be different now?
What is your idea that they "can't get away with dropping bombs" based on? They absolutely could, and they still don't do it. What it's based on is that you assume they would if they could, that's projection, because clearly you like the idea of bombing people for profit.
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That's just a thing you made up to justify not feeling bad, there is no reason to believe that anyone else would act the same way.
To be blunt, have you read a history book? People have been killing the outgroup in brutal struggles for power since time began. Are you aware of the phrase "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must"? It comes from the Siege of Melos in 416 B.C.
I don't like it, but that's the way the world works, and has worked forever. Criticizing people in power for their actions is good. Saying "if only this other country was in power, things would be different" is foolish.
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Man I'd love to be stupid enough to think China is somehow better and different to the USA. Must be any easier living with so few brain cells. Might even get some disability bonus 🤡
What do you mean, different? Every country is different from each other. If you were clear about what you're implying here, i.e. "different as in having no negative sides" then it would be obvious that your argument is against an absolute straw man. Nobody made such a claim.
It's not like China doesn't have issues but I think you don't understand or want to think about just how incredibly fucked up the USA is. China is definitely way less bad.
How many countries have they couped? How many civil wars in poor countries are they responsible for? To you in your comfy home this is just academic but these are the worst atrocities in human history, and the USA does them one after the other after the other.
I love when not beating your child is used as a flex.
Congratulations! You are not THAT kind of asshole.
Sincerely, that kind of asshole
Is that 46 on average also for the past 40 years? Do you have a source for this? Not trying to wreck your post, but I'd like to drop this on some non-leftists one day at the appropriate time, and I want to be confident that the information is reliable.
pov when you rather kill foreigners than feed your own (are they still going thru with those anti-homeless public seats? lol.)
...says the guy on Lemmy criticizing the U.S. government and not getting thrown in jail for it.
I bet you used both your brain cells to write that reply.
Is it not a valid point?
No, it's not.
Do you think it's okay for us to bomb people because I can say on the internet that we shouldn't bomb people?
China doesn't call themselves "the leader of the free world" or "a shining city on a hill". Sure, freedom of speech is generally better in the US than China (but don't think that nobody ever gets put in jail for criticizing the government.) The fact remains that the US kills a lot of people.
I'm not Chinese. I can't affect Chinese policy at all. I focus on the US because my voice is supposed to matter here, allegedly.
No. I think America's violence is a problem.
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You do understand that free speech that doesn't threaten the government is tolerated everywhere, right? Us having more free speech here is just a function of the US government feeling more secure in its power, you can still find examples of free speech being punished in the US when it has threatened its power.
Then China must feel real threatened. According to this, it's against the law in China to even say you don't agree with the law.
"A citizen, when exercising the right of freedom of the press, shall abide by the Constitution and the law, and shall not oppose the basic principles established by the Constitution or damage the interests of the State, the society or the collective, or the lawful freedom and rights of other citizens."
A million Uyghurs, whose only apparent crime is being Muslim, have been sent to labor camps and undergone forced sterilization.
Tiananmen Square started out as people peacefully protesting government corruption, and ended in the state murdering them.
With respect to free speech, there's not even a comparison there with respect to America. It's not "potato potato".
A million Uyghurs, whose only apparent crime is being Muslim, have been sent to labor camps and undergone forced sterilization.
Do you know the sources of these claims? Because you're repeating stuff that was first spread around by a German Christian nationalist (a euphemism) employed by a cia front group, which had already been debunked, and could be debunked by anyone looking at his methodology who is able to read mandarin.
Why is this myth pushed so hard by western countries which slaughter Muslims by the millions, and are engaged in genocide against a majority Muslim population as we speak?
Why do Muslim delegations visiting uniformly support the way China has treated its minority Muslim populations? Before you say sectarianism, investigate and realize that the delegations were intentionally multi-sectarian.
Tiananmen Square started out as people peacefully protesting government corruption, and ended in the state murdering them.
How violently do you think the US would have responded to US protestors trying to overthrow the government when they start burning and lynching to death unarmed soldiers? You can still find photos online of mutilated PLA soldiers corpses from june 2nd. 300 or so dead, including the soldiers that were killed, seems pretty light. Oh wait, the US military would never show up to a protest not armed to the teeth, silly me.
lol
guess its fine for you to make claims but not fine for others to make counter claims. the free market of ideas at work.
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A million Uyghurs, whose only apparent crime is being Muslim, have been sent to labor camps and undergone forced sterilization.
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
The “forced sterilization” nonsense is especially silly when even NATOpedia says otherwise. As part of China’s affirmative action policies, the Uyghurs and other ethic minorities were excepted from the One-Child policy, and in Xinjiang they have grown in numbers relative to Hans as a result, and this happened similarly with other ethnic minorities.
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The blueprint of regime change operations
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Tiananmen Square started out as people peacefully protesting government corruption, and ended in the state murdering them.
- The Tian’anmen Square ‘Massacre’: The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.
- Columbia Journalism Review: The Myth of Tiananmen
- 1989 Tian'anmen Square riots
- A Note on the Tiananmen Protests
- Images from Tiananmen 1989 the West never shows (NSFW / CW: violence and death)
- Tank Man video footage. Tiananmen Square, Beijing, 1989
- How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning
- [Carl Zha’s] Memories of Tiananmen Protest
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On average? So you just take all bombs dropped by the USA and divide it by the number of days the US has been a thing? Then you compare that to the amount of days China hasn't dropped a bomb?
This makes no sense...
IDK why you're being downvoted, you're totally right. For this to be closer to a fair comparison, we'd need to know the averages for both countries over the same time period.
Let's make the last 40 years our time window. China has dropped zero bombs in that period, making their average zero bombs dropped per day.
Now for the US, they've certainly dropped some bombs in the last 40 years. So that would make their average... Greater than zero bombs dropped per day... Oh...
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You want to know what the stats were calculated from? Because it sure as heck wasn't "how many bombs has USA ever dropped ever".
Over 337,000 bombs and missiles dropped from 2001-2021. This equals an average of 46 per day over a recent 20 year period.
https://progressive.org/latest/usa-bombs-drop-benjamin-davies-220112/
Ues but thankfully not only two countries exist in the world. Picking between china and the usa is like picking shit with and without corn.
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