Whoopsie! History just slips through your fingers like sand sometimes, huh?
Complete incompetence that it wasn't digitized already.
this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2024
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That tape is old and degrading. If it's not digitized soon, it will be lost.
I don't think tapes degrade that fast. Yes, the quality will get slightly worse but it can be played until it becomes too brittle.
Video tape isn't really that durable over time. Most of the info I can find comes from digitization services, but they are fairly consistent in saying that, for tapes that are stored in "normal" conditions, you can expect 10-25% degradation in 20 years. These tapes are 40 years old. They have likely degraded significantly already and may fall apart when played.
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God damn! Somebody buy the government a VCR!
/s
The Ampex 1" type C video tape recorder needed is rare, but it's not impossible to find one. The NSA could certainly watch the video if they wanted to. The just don't want to go through the effort for a FOIA request.
The article seemed to suggest you could buy them easily on eBay lol
Yes, they do show up on ebay, but usually not in working condition. Then you have to find someone that can do a restoration. Keep in mind that there may only be one chance to play the tape before it falls apart, so the player needs to be working perfectly.
Which means they need a player AND a way to digitize it from that player, so if it does die, it will still be recorded.
Digitizing is the easy part. Even though it's an ancient format, it's still just NTSC composite video and analog audio. You digitize it just like you would a VHS tape.
The zero-effort method of pointing a camera and mic at the screen as it's being played back should be sufficient if they can't do it another way. Given the tape's age, the resolution is unlikely to be high enough to lose significant details that way.
Lemme guess; it's on BetaMax?
Edit: reels?! You don't have a god damn flashlight and a wall?! I can still watch my dad's old 8mm tapes this way. It just doesn't have a consistent frame rate 🤷🏻♂️
Tapes, not film.
I don’t think it’s that kind of reel. Idk anything about Ampex but it’s probably magnetic tape
This is accurate. I mostly know Ampex because of their history with audio recording, but I'm passingly familiar with some of the other things they did.
I know two VCR repair men who would be up to the job 🤔 somebody call Lighting Fast VCR!!
Those guys are a couple of hackfrauds
I know several youtubers that could be trusted with solving that issue. Why can't they find someone with the skills?
Legit reason: Chain of evidence. They can't bring in an outside expert that hasn't been vetted, and they especially can't use equipment that has been outside their control and hasn't been verified intact. Damn near zero youtubers would pass NSA vetting, which clearly rules out their equipment as well. The fact this is such an outdated tech means there's no verified-trustworthy experts within or contracted with the government that can work with it, so they really are stuck not being able to do anything with this tech in house. Digital obsolescence is a very serious problem, especially in government (why do you think they pay so much for COBOL developers?) and this truly is a nontrivial issue to overcome.
... Which is the bureaucratic legitimacy behind this claim. Obviously they could fix this, I mean duh. But it's an actual hassle, and they see no benefit to going through it to reveal something they don't see a point to revealing. So they just hide behind the legit issues, shrug, and know we can't do anything about it.
They've probably secretly listened to someone unknowingly telling them how to fix it.
I'm not super-well read on the federal FOIA, but am responsible for public information requests at my city, which follow state regs.
At least at my level, the big one is that the government does not have to create documents to satisfy a request. If the data is not in a readable format, we essentially don't have responsive data and are not required to go through the conversion process because that would be creating data.
We also have a rule regarding conversion of electronic data from internal proprietary format to something the requestor can read that allows us to refuse if responding to the request would cause an undue disruption to city services.
My example of when we used it was a request for every copy of a specific formthat had been rejected in building applications. It would have required manually scrubbing tens of thousands of building permits to look for specific forms that were not always turned in using the same name and looking for versions that were rejected (which may have been part of accepted applications if the applicant corrected the form later).
It would have taken about 6 months for a full-time employee, and our city only has 11 staffers, so we were able to tell them "no."
Can the requestor offer to either do it themselves or pay to have someone do it?
The issue there is redaction. A form may have sensitive information that we're not legally allowed to release, so we have to redact information. I'm not talking about classified info, but things like driver's license numbers or or medical information.
It's often stuff we tell people not to give us, but when they do it still requires redaction from a PIR. It's one of the primary reasons they're such a pain in the ass - we have to manually review every page for 30 different kinds of protected info.
We can't let a third-party just sift through that data, because we don't have the right to share that information with them.
Can I bitch about that redaction for a bit? Someone hit our car while it was parked on federal property. There were cameras, and the security people figured out who did it (and called them, and they denied it). When we finally got the police report, all of the information for identifying the guilty party had been redacted, along with the officer's name and any other useful information. For a literal fender bender. Shitty driver got away with it. The police report was completely useless. I can only imagine my insurance company was like, "We waited 3 weeks for THIS?" They might as well have sent over a blank page.
I get the idea behind redacting stuff in general, but that one just pissed me off.
It's frustrating for me too, but state law requires us to redact certain things on a PIR even when we think it's stupid.
I have to redact homeowner information even though it's available through the appraisal district. That means I have to manually check for homeowner names on every page of every document, even though another agency has it labeled on the map. It adds hours and accomplishes nothing.
But it's state law, so I have to follow it.
Right, so what about the second option, paying for someone to handle the data?
With a total staff of 11 I'm guessing there's not a huge budget for outside contractors to do the work.
If it came down to it the remedy is to challenge it in court. An impartial judge should be able to look at the argument from the local government and determine if their argument is legitimate or not.
I'm not talking about the city budget, I'm saying the person requesting documents could pay for the labor needed to get the documents.
A third party can't view the un-redacted documents because the city can't share them.
Right, hence the payment. With the payment, the city could hire someone to free up time for someone to handle and redact the documents. Or pay someone overtime. Or however else the city thinks is reasonable. So instead of saying "no", offer a labor price.
The State only allows us to charge $15/hour for staff time for PIRs, so we can't just hire someone or ask an employee to work an extra 20 hours a week for a year to pull some documents the requestor won't even read.
The thing is lots of these ludicrous requests are made by right-wing lobbyists who try to make us spend 80 grand on a pointless request so they can point out how the city is wasting money. They create problems so they can get the state to remove our ability to make local Ordinances.
For legitimate requests, we go out of our way to meet them. I've spent a lot of time digging through paper files from the 1920s to help citizens.
But most of our requests are either automated bullshit from realtors looking for cheap land, insurance companies looking for who to advertise to, contractors looking for work, lobbyists looking to stir up shit, or, oddly enough, lawn service companies.
For those requests, we do what's legally required and not a damn thing more.
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Who determines whats reasonable?
What if i claim i can read a sound and a video recording of the tape rolling in HD
In the quest for preservation of information can you do to much?
Who determines whats reasonable?
The government decides that, and then if the requestor doesn't like it, they can kick it to a court for review.
So its the citizen that has to go to court over it, shame.
I still propose that in cases like the above tape we should try and request any information about it as possible.
What are its exact dimensions?
From what materials is the tape build? Can we get a description of its smell?
Any text of markings on it or the box/closet it is stored in?
What facility is the tape housed?
Is there a record of who has previously seen or borrowed it?
At some point someone may actually get something useful they can start tracking with.
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This sounds sideways, as FOIA processing is a part of city services, and state services, and federal services.
Treating it otherwise has always seemed to invite abuse.
We also have a rule regarding conversion of electronic data from internal proprietary format to something the requestor can read that allows us to refuse if responding to the request would cause an undue disruption to city services.
How is that a legal workaround against FOIA? Literally every response to FOIA causes a 'disruption' to city services in that context. This sounds like a strategy from management that is incompetent or intentionally unethical trying to avoid processing FOIA requests. "Undue disruption" reads as a convenient scapegoat to hide things from the public, a public that the government is there to serve in the first place.
It would have taken about 6 months for a full-time employee, and our city only has 11 staffers, so we were able to tell them “no.”
~165 hours for ever 10k documents to review at 1 min avg per doc.
45k documents = 750 hours = 25 work weeks @ 30hrs.
That's $11,250 @ $15/hr wages. Call it $16,000 for FTE total costs as a govt employer.
You can engage 10 local contracted temp workers to process the data in a under 3 weeks.
Once you have done the review, the dataset to that point has been compiled and can be used for other such requests without additional expenditures towards recompiling data up to that date.
I'm sure budgets are carefully crafted to avoid including FOIA processing.
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Why can't they find someone with the skills?
Because it's a bad excuse to avoid their legal duties because they've probably broken some laws while thinking there would never be any consequences.
Ofc they could digitise it, easily, they're the fucking NSA, not a tech-illiterate grandparent.
they are on a format that NSA no longer has the ability to view or digitize,” the NSA FOIA office said in a follow-up. “Without being able to view the tapes, NSA has no way to verify their responsiveness. NSA is not required to find or obtain new technology (outdated or current) in order to process a request.”
In short, "we don't want to".
So it was on betamax?
Which also gives them another idea on how to deny FOIA request?
In that case cant we request the raw data in another format? I dont care about the end result if i can make em run trough hoops to comply
Tapes
Raw data
How, without the right kind of reader
"Your failure to plan does not constitute my emergency".
Sounds to me like they're just choosing not to comply with FOIA, a federal law.
This is a bullshit ruling and everyone involved with it knows it. They have my information, I require a copy of my information, end of story. Not providing it is noncompliance.
But of course nothing will happen because the American federal government is broken.
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Ah no, they can't give it out because they aren't able to ensure that there's no sensible data on it.
Btw, how about donating them a tape-to-usb converter? Can they refuse it? With some "we can't ensure integrity and security of the device" mumbo jumbo?
If the information that is the tape cant come to us maybe we can visit the tape and measure it ourselves.
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The hard drive with the information is on a very high shelf and you cannot force us to buy a ladder.
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It is true that they could resurrect the tapes if they had a compelling reason to do so. Denying the request indicates that they don't believe the reason to be sufficiently compelling to warrant the extra expenditure of resources. That is subtley different from "we don't want to", which implies a level of capriciousness.
Government departments get FOI requests all the time and they take resources to fulfill. FOI is not intended as a way to have taxpayers fund people's pet projects. That's why FOI law doesn't require your government to spend (even more) money to acquire technology they don't have or need for anything other than the FOI request itself. Rather, something that requires that kind of extra effort and expenditure should be submitted as a research request, normally with its own funding.
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Christ just tell Biden to make them give them to the national archives with an executive order. They'll figure it out.
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