this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2024
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[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This is the best summary I could come up with:


As spotted by SteamDB creator Pavel Djundik, some data in the document was viewable despite the black redaction boxes, including Valve’s headcount and gross pay across various parts of the company over 18 years, and even some data about its gross margins that we weren’t able to uncover fully.

The data breaks Valve employees into four different groups: “Admin,” “Games,” “Steam,” and, starting in 2011, “Hardware.”

If you want to sift through the numbers yourself, I’ve included a full table of the data, sorted by year and category, at the end of this story.

In November 2023, Valve’s Pierre-Loup Griffais told The Verge that he thinks “we’re firmly in the camp of being a full fledged hardware company by now.”

The small number of staff across the board seemingly explains why Valve’s product list is so limited despite its immense business as basically the de facto PC gaming platform.

While we haven’t seen any leaked profit numbers from this new headcount and payroll data, the figures give a more detailed picture of how much Valve is spending on its staff — which, given the massive popularity of Steam, is probably still just a fraction of the money the company is pulling in.


The original article contains 620 words, the summary contains 201 words. Saved 68%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] etchinghillside@reddthat.com 0 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Im struggling to convince myself if I should read the article and see if some actual numbers were ever mentioned.

[–] conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

"Hardware,” to my surprise, has been a relatively small part of the company, with just 41 employees paid a gross of more than $17 million in 2021

That's the only one I saw that meant anything that useful. They have ~10x that for game development but no indication of number of people there, and 79 people working on Steam.

[–] Mozingo@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

Number of employees working on games is in the list at the bottom of the article. 181 as of 2021.

[–] Seraph@fedia.io 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Valve employee data, 2003 - 2021 Year Category [Presumably: Gross pay] [Presumably: Number of employees] 2003 Admin $454,142 5 2004 Admin $548,833 8 2005 Admin $11,644,172 9 2006 Admin $7,905,166 11 2007 Admin $1,997,107 12 2008 Admin $19,519,296 14 2009 Admin $20,300,752 18 2010 Admin $34,754,590 19 2011 Admin $35,216,732 22 2012 Admin $68,925,186 24 2013 Admin $48,462,690 20 2014 Admin $90,406,510 23 2015 Admin $91,496,697 24 2016 Admin $95,444,499 35 2017 Admin $83,146,640 38 2018 Admin $103,479,550 39 2019 Admin $109,720,296 39 2020 Admin $118,435,121 39 2021 Admin $157,999,567 35 2003 Games $3,933,064 57 2004 Games $4,471,342 61 2005 Games $18,122,549 81 2006 Games $17,260,260 97 2007 Games $12,768,984 100 2008 Games $39,677,549 136 2009 Games $44,076,164 148 2010 Games $66,201,302 173 2011 Games $68,173,834 175 2012 Games $135,484,323 186 2013 Games $107,654,658 188 2014 Games $152,351,554 185 2015 Games $181,769,451 160 2016 Games $174,660,830 175 2017 Games $221,488,403 184 2018 Games $216,249,204 192 2019 Games $236,798,782 201 2020 Games $199,306,798 189 2021 Games $192,355,985 181 2003 Steam $1,038,091 16 2004 Steam $1,113,136 16 2005 Steam $2,840,825 23 2006 Steam $3,424,485 29 2007 Steam $3,128,634 34 2008 Steam $5,053,283 40 2009 Steam $7,339,922 51 2010 Steam $17,732,609 60 2011 Steam $16,369,045 101 2012 Steam $42,966,257 127 2013 Steam $44,515,505 128 2014 Steam $52,338,579 119 2015 Steam $72,391,837 142 2016 Steam $56,390,975 125 2017 Steam $64,945,395 102 2018 Steam $70,814,165 82 2019 Steam $66,481,253 80 2020 Steam $71,752,682 82 2021 Steam $76,446,633 79 2011 Hardware $2,252,828 7 2012 Hardware $3,460,641 14 2013 Hardware $5,369,203 20 2014 Hardware $10,180,424 27 2015 Hardware $12,396,140 27 2016 Hardware $11,001,217 36 2017 Hardware $16,724,365 39 2018 Hardware $19,578,951 47 2019 Hardware $15,831,572 47 2020 Hardware $12,008,996 31 2021 Hardware $17,706,376 41

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

needed some formatting:

Valve employee data, 2003 - 2021
Year Category [Presumably: Gross pay] [Presumably: Number of employees]
2003 Admin $454,142 5
2004 Admin $548,833 8
2005 Admin $11,644,172 9
2006 Admin $7,905,166 11
2007 Admin $1,997,107 12
2008 Admin $19,519,296 14
2009 Admin $20,300,752 18
2010 Admin $34,754,590 19
2011 Admin $35,216,732 22
2012 Admin $68,925,186 24
2013 Admin $48,462,690 20
2014 Admin $90,406,510 23
2015 Admin $91,496,697 24
2016 Admin $95,444,499 35
2017 Admin $83,146,640 38
2018 Admin $103,479,550 39
2019 Admin $109,720,296 39
2020 Admin $118,435,121 39
2021 Admin $157,999,567 35

.

2003 Games $3,933,064 57
2004 Games $4,471,342 61
2005 Games $18,122,549 81
2006 Games $17,260,260 97
2007 Games $12,768,984 100
2008 Games $39,677,549 136
2009 Games $44,076,164 148
2010 Games $66,201,302 173
2011 Games $68,173,834 175
2012 Games $135,484,323 186
2013 Games $107,654,658 188
2014 Games $152,351,554 185
2015 Games $181,769,451 160
2016 Games $174,660,830 175
2017 Games $221,488,403 184
2018 Games $216,249,204 192
2019 Games $236,798,782 201
2020 Games $199,306,798 189
2021 Games $192,355,985 181

.

2003 Steam $1,038,091 16
2004 Steam $1,113,136 16
2005 Steam $2,840,825 23
2006 Steam $3,424,485 29
2007 Steam $3,128,634 34
2008 Steam $5,053,283 40
2009 Steam $7,339,922 51
2010 Steam $17,732,609 60
2011 Steam $16,369,045 101
2012 Steam $42,966,257 127
2013 Steam $44,515,505 128
2014 Steam $52,338,579 119
2015 Steam $72,391,837 142
2016 Steam $56,390,975 125
2017 Steam $64,945,395 102
2018 Steam $70,814,165 82
2019 Steam $66,481,253 80
2020 Steam $71,752,682 82
2021 Steam $76,446,633 79

.

2011 Hardware $2,252,828 7
2012 Hardware $3,460,641 14
2013 Hardware $5,369,203 20
2014 Hardware $10,180,424 27
2015 Hardware $12,396,140 27
2016 Hardware $11,001,217 36
2017 Hardware $16,724,365 39
2018 Hardware $19,578,951 47
2019 Hardware $15,831,572 47
2020 Hardware $12,008,996 31
2021 Hardware $17,706,376 41

[–] warm@kbin.earth 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

There's an entire table on there.

[–] PseudorandomNoise@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

The total number is even in the first paragraph. Not the best summary I’ve ever seen.

[–] FalseMyrmidon@kbin.run 0 points 2 months ago

There are no actual numbers. There are gross payroll numbers and number of employees per high level department, but no indication of how that's distributed or if it includes things like benefits. Basically useless info in a vacuum

[–] Grimy@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

336 people

30% grabbed from every game

8.56 billion in revenue

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 0 points 2 months ago

8.56 billion in revenue

And that's just estimated from sales on the platform. AFAIK, they have never publicly stated their actual earnings.

[–] ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The service they privide to devs and customers is worth it, but valve doesn't even really take 30% anyway. Watch pirate software's video on it.

[–] erwan@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago (8 children)

I love Steam and I love Gabe, but the system we have that let Steam extract so much money out of the gaming industry is broken.

And that's true for software or online services in general, and I'm saying that as someone who benefit from that system as a software engineer.

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[–] systemglitch@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Damn, working for Valve pays very well.

What a great company!

[–] firadin@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (7 children)

Because they don't pay any of their actual workforce: the game devs they steal 30% from for every game sold.

[–] explore_broaden@midwest.social 0 points 2 months ago

I prefer not to buy games on steam, and when a game is available from another channel (for example Factorio is available on the devs’ website) I will buy it there. And yet, most games are only on steam, so the devs really don’t seem to care about trying to avoid that 30% cut when they can.

[–] systemglitch@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] balder1991@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

As if people are forced to publish there.

They can even list there and sell Steam keys on their website and not pay any of that to Valve, with the only stipulation that Steam keys cannot be sold for less than on Steam itself.

So basically:

  1. You don't need to publish there
  2. But if you do, you can still publish elsewhere
  3. And you can sell Steam keys directly with no cut to Valve

You only pay the 30% cut for sales made through Steam.

That's incredibly reasonable.

[–] Grimy@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

There aren't many option and all of them except one are predatory. Regulation that would limit the amount taken would be a real boon to the industry. Steam, Epic, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are all guilty of this. The government should step in but they don't because of lobbying and donations.

No one defends Microsoft when it comes to this. Gaben gets a free pass because he pretends to be a cool guy when he's just another billionaire essentially robbing his workforce and customers.

[–] sep@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Steam is the only store putting the cusromer first. The refund policy is top notch. Heck just making proton, giving gamers the choise of os, is the best thing for gamers since computers was invented!

https://youtu.be/gwoAmifo9r0

[–] Grimy@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

Microsoft's refund policy is top notch too and I see proton as leveraging open source to avoid dev costs.

More importantly, everything steam does could be done with 5% instead of 30% and Gaben would still be filthy rich.

Steam is as greedy as the other platforms and it's us, the consumers, and the indie scene that suffer for it. Are you okay with your favorite indie studio closing and your favorite game not getting a sequel because Gaben wants 8000 million a year instead of 1000 million a year?

There is most likely collusion and soft monopolies, these platforms are clearly not competing in good faith.

[–] HERRAX@sopuli.xyz 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Dude, unless you've ever tried publishing your own game you should stop parroting stuff you hear online. I've released a (borderline shovelware) game I made for educational purposes, and steam is god damned amazing and has such good support for a novice like myself. On the complete opposite of what you're claiming, the gamers and indie companies stand to gain the most from a service like steam.

It's not surprising that it's more or less only people from huge companies like blizzard and Ubisoft who complain and try to gaslight Valve. If I were to release a game again I'd rather publish it on steam if they took 60% of the cut than anywhere else. (Unless you want to pay me a godly amount of money for exclusivity Epic Games, then hmu lol)

[–] Grimy@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

You would have the same service if you paid 5% or 60%, steam is ridiculously profitable.

I'm a consumer and I care about the industry, I won't shut up just because you made one shovelware game and tell me to. This is literally against your own self interests, are you sure you aren't the one parroting stuff valves marketing team drilled into you?

Explain to me how regulations and limiting the rate to 5% wouldn't be a clear cut benefit to everyone involved including you. Do you think they go bankrupt? 336 employees and 8000 million. And no, their hardware cost for hosting games does not come close to costing 8000 million.

[–] HERRAX@sopuli.xyz 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Great, give me an alternative then.

Afaik, except for steam only Itch even has a native Linux client for starters? EGS is a pos software that doesn't even have an "appear as offline" mode and bleeds money while still taking a 12% cut. And Epic is not a small indie company trying to break into the market.

Steam workshop, their VR integration, their work with Proton for Linux, Steam marketplace, the ease of generating keys for resellers without the 30% cut, great mobile app/interface, actually good storefront browsing, the list just goes on with things Steam does better than any competitor, and that's just a few examples of where the 30% cut is going (ofc they still make absolute bank on top of this).

But regulating this to something insane like 5% would definitely make us lose out on several of these features, not to speak about future features.

[–] Grimy@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

regulating this to something insane like 5% would definitely make us lose out on several of these features, not to speak about future features.

They would still have more than a billion in revenue. Steams is running on insane profits and it would still be running in insane profits at 5%. Look through the document posted and do some napkin math. Even at 0.5%, Gaben would still be able to buy a yatch, just maybe not the six like he currently owns. That isn't an exaggeration, he owns six yatchs and spends between 70 million and 100 million a year maintaining them. That is who you are defending.

[–] xthexder@l.sw0.com 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

proton as leveraging open source to avoid dev costs

As a developer, I have no problem with this. Why do work that doesn't need to be done?

[–] Grimy@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

I don't either, that is what open source is for afterall. I'm trying to point out that this decision wasn't out of love for his customers but out of love for his bottom line. This let him compete with platforms with devices while having a seriously low entry cost compared to them. It's just a smart business decision but people treat it as if it was charity.

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[–] richmondez@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Putting the customer first? Call me when I can transfer my license to anyone else I want without valve having to okay it like I can a physical copy then we are talking about putting the customer first.

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[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You mean the game devs that they take 30% from in a contract the devs agree to in order to list their game on the largest PC gaming store?

Besides that, steam has an incredibly low financial requirement to start selling your games on their platform. $100 usd per game (at least in the US) and you get it back if your game sells enough copies (100 maybe? I forget tbh.) It's a great platform for indie devs which is why we've seen indie PC gaming boom so much in the past decade or so especially.

[–] systemglitch@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago
[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

If you don't want a publisher to take a cut: self-publish. Every publisher takes a cut. Valve just takes 10% more than everyone else, while also providing more tools and support than anyone else to those devs.

[–] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Valve is not a publisher they are a store. The percentage they take is in line with every other digital store, except itch.io Also compared to releasing in brick and mortar stores that percentage is low.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Valve is both a publisher and developer.

Steam is a store.

A publisher is merely any individual or business that makes others' works available for sale. Valve does this through Steam.

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[–] rdri@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (5 children)

Valve just takes 10% more than everyone else

What do you mean? 30% is used by almost every digital store.

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[–] CriticalMiss@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You mean the game devs they provide CDN at no additional costs, networking features a dev environment that is far more comfortable than any competitor and various additional revenue streams (such as trading cards and items)?

[–] Azzu@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

It's still stealing if the profit is this extremely high. Of course a successful business includes providing a useful product. But if you make so much more money per employee than any other company, that means the amount you're charging is disproportional. They could change Steam fees to 5% and still be extremely profitable. They choose not to because of greed.

This is not me condemning them by the way, I think their greed and what they do with the money available to them is still mostly better than what other people do, but it's still greed.

I define all excessive profit as stealing. In an ideal world everyone would be earning roughly the same. (Or no earning being necessary at all, but I don't want to go into every detail)

[–] LunarLoony@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

So am I stealing from my employer because I earn more than the cost of my bills?

[–] Azzu@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Who said anything about costs/bills? I'm talking about excessive wealth extraction. If a group of people gets massively wealthy by taking lots of money from other people, one should wonder if they really need all that money.

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[–] Azzu@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

If the amount of money massively outweighs your bills, then I would say yes. Also if your "bills" are extreme luxury, then even without that. We really need to stop with this massive wealth inequality. Our economy works on transactions. If the profit margin on any transaction (including labor) is exorbitantly high, then something is going wrong. An investment banker is not more valuable than a teacher. A CEO is not more valuable than a janitor.

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[–] freeman@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

How much is the profit? 30% is revenue not profit.

Why is money per employee a useful metric? One would expect most costs of a store like steam to be in hardware and network not in labor.

[–] Azzu@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Exactly. The question is how much is really necessary to operate that service. We as a species really need to stop thinking about constant growth and more and more wealth, and that includes growth and wealth that is "reasonable" compared to other extremely greedy people. Right now it looks like Steam is growing to infinity and making more and more money. They're the same like everyone else trying to make more and more money. Of course they're more ethical and they return value for that money, but they're still part of the same system of infinite growth that is not sustainable.

This infinite growth is happening because they extract more value than they require. If they extracted as much value as they require to sustain their business, they wouldn't grow. But of course constant growth is what everyone expects and thus no one sees a problem with it.

I see it as stealing.

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[–] BigSadDad@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (4 children)

This thread contains a lot of great bangers. But let's play devil's advocate for just a minute.

Let me know when you build a global distribution platform with 5-9 uptime, credit card processing, full compliance with all of the various laws in all the countries you serve and also provide a cdn for my game for free.

I'll be waiting. You better pull through on this, you owe the community your labor

[–] firadin@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Me: "Rent seeking is an illegitimate practice, landlords steal money from laborers by extorting them for a necessary good!"

You: "Oh yeah? Why don't you just buy your own land and build your own apartment building?"

You're a dumbass.

[–] BigSadDad@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Lmao, thanks for demonstrating my point for me better than I ever could.

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[–] BaroqueInMind@lemmy.one 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

How is Valve supposed to pay for the infrastructure and maintenance without charging devs for using their enormous platform? I'm genuinely curious what ideas you have. Disregard everyone's non-sequiturs here, please.

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[–] Crampon@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Gabe is the smartest guy in business. Guy is rolling in cash, only for himself and those he choose to share it with.

Idk what they teach you in business school, but it's probably wrong.

[–] cheers_queers@lemm.ee 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

i took one year of business school, and they teach you to offshore outsource as much as possible and to prioritize your shareholders at all costs. so, nothing surprising.

[–] Zipitydew@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

It's just the Jack Welch playbook over and over. Even though people finally started to realize Jack was a fucking idiot and ruined GE.

He got rich. But fucked one of the most well known and respected companies in the world doing it.

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