this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
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To all the people not wanting to extend the proxy war against the war crime committing Russians: what do you expect will happen if you stop funding Ukraine defense against war crimes? You think Russians just go home? You think China and North Korea don't look around at adjacent territories licking their lips? Do you understand what deterrence means?
Before you respond like a tankie that America is an imperialist shithole, America is not the one (this time) committing war crimes, RUSSIA is.
North Korea only borders SK and China. It has never invaded another country. China hasn't invaded another country since 1979 and since then Vietnam and China have peacefully resolved their land border dispute.
America is committing war crimes right now. The imposition of collective punishment is a war crime. America's comprehensive sanctions which it has applied to several countries constitute collective punishment and are hence a war crime.
Condemning the Russian invasion shouldn't mean white washing the world's largest perpetrator of state terrorism.
Just a minor correction for you, NK also borders Russia.
Sanctions are not collective punishment, and war crimes only exist in the context of war.
Also, the DPRK did invade the RoK, that's what started the Korean War.
Also also, China has reserved a spot on its equivalent of the National Mall for when it takes Taiwan back.
China definitely cares about how well Russia's invasion of Ukraine goes, because of the many geopolitical parallels it would have with it invading Taiwan.
Not according to the state department. They themselves say the reason they use sanctions is to cause as much pain to the people as possible so they're more likely to overthrow the gov't, or failing that, be softer targets for military intervention.
The RoK was doing genocide and had been recognized as the gov't of all of Korea in the UN due to the US's machinations, a gov't whose election was rigged in the south, and absent in the north. The elections the north arranged were of course, ignored.
The DPRK saw that their position was unsustainable and struck while they still stood a chance. The war started when the people of the DPRK were faced with an existential threat.
Which is kind of similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but nobody here is gonna pretend Russia are the good guys, just that they're fighting a greater evil.
Do you think the RoC can feasibly remain independent forever?
Eventually either PRC is gonna be able to make them a better deal than what the failing American empire can, or they'll make long-term peaceful integration infeasible, necessitating short-term, violent integration.
What are sanctions if not collective punishment? The entire point of sanctions is to make the average person's life worse, with the idea that this will somehow cause them to rise up and overthrow their government. That's the very definition of collective punishment.
Axis of Evil ganggggg
you think north korea is annexing ukraine??? what planet are you living on
Those inscrutable asiatics are licking their lips! Something must be done!!!!
I wouldn't even mind extending the war so much if there was any attempt to have some good faith peace negotiations to at least entertain a chance at peace??? Russia has always been up for peace talks, Ukraine/the West has not. In fact I am still often shouted down if I so much as say that all sides should be discussing the possibility of peace.
I agree Russia bad and should not be doing an awful invasion, but there is also a much wider context to their invasion that involves Ukraine refusing to give its eastern regions a vote on their own future and bombing civilians for 8 years. This war was very far from inevitable, even without giving Russia any major concessions.
Russia can unilaterally end the war by leaving Ukrainian territory. They choose to extend the war because they want land and resources.
And have NATO 500 miles from Moscow and all of Russia's industry? That would be suicidal, Everyone remembers Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.
Also the reason the west is extending the war is because they too want land and resources. This is a war between two bourgeois dictatorships
Are you saying that Russia should leave the Donbas region and leave those people to be subjugated by the undemocratic Ukrainian gov that's been indiscriminately murdering them for 8 years???
Hate Russia if you want but why do you hate the people of Donbas?
The Russian Ukrainians will be able to stay in their homes without fear of genocide by the NATO backed government.
And fuck all the other Ukrainians that will get genocided by putin, right?
your analysis is completly of as it starts from a Propaganda Tainted cartoonishly Ill Informed Postion..
Russia Reacted , Its the Ukrainian Warcrimes thats the Issue here ! How can you Start this story from 2022 .. its a crime against rational thinking , Chronology , Human Civilisation ... Unserious Analyss based on the uncritical repetion of irrational claimes by the World greates Liars ....
According to Russia, they started it all in 2014 by invading Crimea. They initially denied it, but then even Putin himself said that the Little Green Men were their special forces. People like Igor Girkin said he was commanding militias in Crimea and later in the Dombas and that they were composed of Russians and some Ukrainians. That's what Russia says, so there's no point in even trying to deny it.
There was no Azov before the invasion. There was no war crimes. There was no famine. There was no shelling. No ceasefire violations. It started when Russia made the decision to invade Ukraine.
Maybe you want to go further back? How far back? How about 1994 and the Budapest Memorandum where Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders?
Wait, I know, you'll blame NATO. Care to explain why countries want to give some of their military freedom away just to join NATO? What is nice Russia doing or saying that makes them want to join? Could it be something to do with the regular comments about invading their countries or nuking their cities? And do you really think that a weak, bloated, and corrupt military (a fair description of pre-2014 Ukraine military) was going to be allowed into NATO (and we're the ones falling for propaganda)? I'd also like to know your opinion about CSTO.
Russia decided to invade Ukraine to expand their territory. That's why Putin gave that long history lesson days before the invasion (the one that was not going to happen and was an American lie!). It's was all there, for those who actually listened to it.
If you want to support them, then do it, but at least grow up a pair and stop using bullshit excuses to support your position.
7 year old lecture by john mearsheimer, who is far from being a "putler shill" or a "tankie", on why ukraine is the west's fault
I've watched the lecture. He makes some good points, but there are also some flaws with his positions. I recommend doing a quick "googling" for articles with counter points.
Russia is not governed by amateurs that are easily baited into invading a country. They decided to force Ukraine to align with them and when that didn't work, they decided to invade in 2014. The decision and responsibility is theirs.
It's a bit like blaming the Soviet Union or China for the Vietnam war because they were "expanding" communism or something like that. It makes no sense.
i'm aware of the counter points
this was a bit surprising to read because if i spend 10 minutes in reddit i'll leave thinking russians are governed by absolutely inept people who can't do anything right and always fall for the silliest of cebolinha do pix zelensky's schemes
and it wasn't a "bait", that's a silly way of looking at it; in the neo-realist view it makes perfect sense that russia would see ukraine as an existential threat after the nato mistake was made, and that war would become inevitable if things escalated - as mearsheimer predicted more than a decade ago in other discussions
ukraine, in practical terms, has been disputed territory in terms of political influence since the fall of the ussr. but before the threat of nato, and the repeated breaking of the non-expansion promise, there was no sign that an invasion like this would ever happen
now you're being disingenuous, vietnam doesn't share a literal border with america. we should be able to blame the soviets for a mexican war if they attempted to bring mexico into a military alliance in the 80s or something, and the US would be absolutely right to see said alliance as an existential threat because it would be
it's ok to think that russia deserves an existential threat for whatever reason, such as, i don't know, "putin bad" (though of course i wouldn't say he's as bad as any american president, at least he has never been such for my country). but denying that russia's change into a bellicose attitude was predictable and avoidable by sane geopolitics is just denying reality at this point
I don't know what reddit is saying about Russia, but the "poor Russia, couldn't help themselves and had to invade" doesn't convince me. They made a calculated move which didn't go as well as they expected. It happens sometimes.
NATO had an "open-door" policy from the start. Russia knows this, so unless we really think everyone over there is really dumb, they knew that NATO's "sure, maybe we'll let you in sometime in the future" meant little. Ukraine was trying to join since the early 2000's and the reply was always the same... Ukraine wasn't going to join NATO in 2014, like zero chance. I recommend reading about the state of their forces, corruption, etc, at the time. What changed was that Yanukovych was going to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, something that most of Ukraine supported (if we're to trust polls and look at the reaction when he unexpectedly changed his mind) while Russia wanted Ukraine to do the same agreement with them instead.
The existential threat... I don't know. Do you really think that their "existential threat" is now higher that Finland joined NATO (because of Russia's actions)? Estonia is fine, but Ukraine is makes that "existential threat" much, much worse? And who the hell is going to start a war in Russia when they have capacity to reply to normal attacks and will, without a doubt, use their nukes if invaded? Does NATO now have a death wish or something like that?
I keep reading about that non expansion promise... again, I guess you all think Russians are dumb and got verbal assurances thinking that it's the same as having them in writing. In any case, Russia doesn't own eastern Europe, many countries have made clear they don't want to be under their thumb or be part of their country. If Russia doesn't like this, well, though luck. A reality check would also help here... they're not the USSR.
The Vietnam example wasn't a good one, but my point is that if we start finding excuses to justify wars, well, we can, but it never ends and it's never our fault.
The US has some history with Cuba... but the only time when there was a really serious reaction wasn't when Castro became friends with the Soviet Union... it was when nukes were deployed in Cuba (partially their fault, after deploying theirs in Turkey). Russia invaded Ukraine because they were winking at the EU and NATO... like, they didn't even kiss!
I know why they invaded, but I also believe in taking responsibility for one's actions. We can talk about moral responsibility, but at the end of the day Russia invaded Ukraine and therefore they are responsible for the war they started.
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I apologize then, I have broken my own containment
Well at least not in Ukraine. I'm sure we are committing some war crimes quietly somewhere else. Seems like we can't stop doing that.
I agree with your comment by the way, I'm just further shitting down that argument as well.
We know our government sucks. We're working on making it work the way it was supposed to. Section 1983 has to be rectified.
Opinion immediately discarded.
I seriously doubt you know what a Kender is.