Context^piped^^-^^invidious^^-^^lemmy^
There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.
To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.
To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.
Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.
With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...
I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.
Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip. I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.
Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).
With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient.
We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.
Thanks for reading this.^[https://linustechtips.com/topic/1526180-gamers-nexus-alleges-lmg-has-insufficient-ethics-and-integrity/page/16/#comment-16078641; archive]
Check LinusTech's profile for further discussion and comments he's had.^[https://linustechtips.com/profile/3-linustech/; archive]
When they mess up (which happens a lot), why does he always go down the “you’ve hurt my feelings, we are only human route” ? That’s why they never learn from their mistakes and carry on acting like fools.
I can’t be bothered watching most of their videos anymore because they are so superficial, it’s clear he’s done no or little research and (if it’s on a topic I’ve got some interest in) I can see it’s really innacurate.
I don't even think he's pulling it out as an intentional tactic, I get the feeling he legitimately wants to be a good guy and is barely able to handle the suggestion that he isn't acting like one. Just a fragile ego and self-image.
I think you're right to an extent. Everyone wants to believe they are the protagonist, so when they're presented with something that threatens that world view they get very defensive and start attempting all kinds of weird deflections. Louis Rossmann has talked about this in the past on his channel. He takes the rather extreme view that he is always the bad guy by default, but that view does at least acknowledge that he is also not the good guy by default.
That said, I do still think there are aspects of the apology which are insincere and non-accidental attempts to shift the narrative and mislead people about what has actually happened.
I feel like I might have done something similar in his shoes. It makes me sad because I've been watching since the NCIX days I think Linus is a lot better than this but I can put myself in his shoes and it probably feels a hell of a lot like people dogpiling on him out of the blue (even if that's not entirely the reality) and a betrayal by the industry he helped grow for over a decade. I don't see him as a villain by a long shot but his go go go attitude is toxic at times and has come to a head.
His post to me reads more as someone who is anxious and scared of what might come next. I think he fucked up by not waiting to put some distance between himself and the reckoning so he could address it properly with a clear head.
Linus hasn't distanced himself enough from the company. If LMG "wants to be a real company", which it is now, it needs to be able to take criticism. Nobody is criticizing any individual at LMG, we are criticizing the company. Companies are not individuals and need a mechanism for dealing with any criticism, abuse, harassment, dogpiling, ect that's not a defensive CEO taking it personally and blurting out their emotional reaction. I don't know how Linus can live being the sole punching bag for such a large company.
Absolutely, I'm just understanding of his perspective as the person who started it all and has that deep emotional attachment to it, which as someone who has watched it grow from nothing has a small taste of, his name is all over it, it's hard to not take criticism personally, it doesn't excuse what he said but it makes a lot more sense in that context.
Incidentally they have been deliberate about rebranding as acronyms etc to move his name away from the brand a little, since it's no longer just "Linus and friends" and a whole ass thing.
They just posted a better response on Floatplane this morning it should hit YouTube soon
Sometimes he makes so many mistakes that I wonder if it's pretending to ignore it for views or just didn't know that. A man with decades of experience like him can't make such simple errors.
Like in the recent unRAID video, he replaced a data drive with one bigger than the parity drive. Anyone with more than 1 hour of experience with unRAID knows that the parity drives must be the biggest in the array, how he couldn't know that?
Probably a video like "i swapped the broken disk with a similar one and voila problem fixed" wasn't as interesting as 25 minutes of "OMG I am losing all my data why this isn't working OMG let's do this other wrong approach now OMG"
He was pretty clear through that whole video that he didn’t know what he was doing. That video was purely for entertainment, and it was obvious from the first minute.
Ironically he comes off as a guy that's not good at computers even though he really likes them. It's amazing he's been able to make a very successful career out of that.
To be fair he needs to know a shitton about a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with computers, like how to run a business, or make videos. It's reasonable to expect that he won't truly be the most knowledgeable in all aspects of "tech".
The funny thing is he knows a shit-ton about computers. Unfortunately, he knows enough to think he won't be blind-sided, or get tripped up by things he decides to ignore for the sake of (excuse my language) engaging content. In a way, the fact that he steps on a rake every so often just raises his profile.
Because I don't think you or any of the people in this thread would spout the vitriol they have to his face if they recognized him as a human. Consider a friend you have that you're close to. Now imagine they fucked up in the way linus did. How do you approach them about it? Do you say, "hey man, I think you were in the wrong there, let's talk, I want to understand where your head was at"? Or do you jump straight to, "you never learn from your mistakes, that's why you keep acting like a fool. I can't be bothered with your superficial attitude"?
There's a disconnect between people communicating on the internet. Most humans aren't evolved to have sympathy for hypothetical people, much less intangible celebrities, much less communicating asynchronously. We're evolved to look each other in the face, read each others' emotions, and adjust the conversation accordingly to be most effective. None of that can happen here.
I have not watched this video, nor do I really watch any of the LTT/LMG's videos so I'm just a third party observer here. However, this goes both ways - are the others correct when they said that their video directly said "No one should ever buy this"?
If so, using the same example I'm sure you'd expect that your friend wouldn't say "No one should ever buy this" when you ask them for a review on something you made. Yes, Linus and his team are human - but so are the people who made the original product. I get the feeling this isn't the first review that LMG hasn't exactly given... glowing reviews to, either.
Plenty of people go on tirades about those that they don't actually have a personal connection to, it's unfortunate but as you said, is all too very common especially when you're a person who's in a higher position than those complaining about you. As the (previous now, as far as I understand?) CEO of a company though you don't double down on your mistakes because that only makes the situation worse.
And of course, if you go and do something silly say, on the road - you very much are likely to get someone to speak how they truly feel about you.
My boss is the CEO of a smaller company (we are a team of about 10 people at a time, max), we were talking about the situation today - and he said "When we make a mistake, my job is to address the issue but at the same time, not add fuel to the fire. Because we probably were wrong, and when you have a ton of customers complaining on that scale then you probably were in the wrong."- I do not know how much total profit either of them make, but my boss isn't the CEO of a massive company like Google and started off as a one-man-shop too.
Before I send you this novel, just want to preface with, thank you for your respectful response.
So to address your first point, not sure if you were intentionally pivoting the metaphor or not, but I just want to be clear that my "you and a friend" metaphor was intended to be analogous to the Linus/audience relationship, not Linus/Billet. Linus isn't directing the "we're human" line at Billet Labs, he's directing it at us onlookers responding to the situation. I assume that LMG and Billet Labs have a completely different relationship regarding this situation with completely different motives and emotions and dialogues involved, versus the relationship between LMG and their audience. The audience is currently giving a ragebait response, I'm sure LMG is getting their fair share of death threats right now, but also generally seeing a lot of the more typical toxic responses that often accompany a cancelling, and THAT is the vitriolic reaction I'm referring to when I talk about "you and a friend". People say things over the internet to faceless celebrities that they would never in a million years say to another human no matter how wrong they were; they know not to because it's not constructive and only burns bridges. But random strangers don't have a bridge they're caring for with Linus, because they don't have any tangible relationship with him. That's all I'm saying.
Second, I don't think "no one should ever buy this" is the insult people are hearing it as. As a reviewer, LMG's job is (typically) to measure the portion of their audience that a product is the best option for, quantify that portion, and notify them of the product. But when a product is the best option for virtually no one, it's simply a statement of fact to say "no one should buy this". I don't know what line of business you're in, but I'm sure you'd agree that you should be able to have a meeting with your CEO, and say in no uncertain terms exactly who your target demographic is, and how large that group is at any given time. I have to assume Billet Labs is fully aware that the current product at the current price point is only commercially viable for less than 20 people's usecase. But being commercially viable is not their current goal, which leads me to the problem I have with Linus focusing on that point in the video: It's literally a limited batch prototype. It's not relevant to say whether anyone should buy it, because they aren't even manufacturing them to be sold yet. The supercar analogy is apt, because people don't watch Top Gear to be told that no one should buy a Lamborghini (even though it's true), they watch it to see the car "rip" as it were.
I think that's the safe (arguably "right") statement for your CEO to make, and this is why you usually get the generic, no stance, "we'll do better" statements we often see in these situations. I do think Linus could have done a better job not coming off as defensive, because he does seem to understand that he had the wrong mindset about the product from the start. But the "we're human" statement I think is a normal human response to a situation where you're being flooded with hatemail, from people you've never met, over a situation that there is still confusion around, and you're just doing your best to correct your mistakes.
Linus has said he's stepping down from the company multiple times before. I wonder if this will be his "that's it, I'm done" moment, or if he doesn't want this to be how he goes out. Hoping the latter, but we'll see...
Edit: just saw that they put out a video addressing the situation. Glad his wife and the new CEO know how to do damage control better than him.
No worries! I'm glad that it did come off as respectful, I'm all too well used to replying to someone with a differing viewpoint/perspective than theirs on "the other site", and them interpreting that as me attempting to be hostile - which is never the case! For what its worth, I do agree that in general a lot of people when they post comments online have a bad habit of being incredibly disrespectful with what they say. I was raised to follow the golden rule of "treat others the way you wish to be treated", and I have always felt that it costs nothing to be kind and respectful to people by default. I even have a habit of trying to be as respectful as I can to AIs/LLMs such as Bard when I talk with it - which I've been told is "silly", but again it doesn't cost me anything to be nice, and on the logical side at the very least maybe it'll help the "training" of the AIs. There is absolutely never a situation that calls for sending out death threats and personal attacks to others online.
The rest of my response will be a bit of a novel itself, so that I can further explain my reasoning behind my original comment - definitely feel free to skip over it as I do have a bit of reputation for having err, extended, responses 😅... Mainly the intent is not to try to change anyone else's viewpoint/opinions, but as a bit of a demonstration that I'm not trying to jump on the "LTT bad" bandwagon that seems to be occurring throughout the internet right now.
I did understand that when you mentioned the you/friend metaphor that you were specifically talking about it from a Linus and audience perspective - I do agree with that metaphor in general 100%, but I do think it should extend to Linus / LMG and the people they are referring to in their videos as well, since if the point of applying the original metaphor is to emphasize that Linus and his team/company are humans the same applies to those behind the products in their reviews. Hence why "no one should ever buy this" comes off a bit... off-key to me when you then turn around and respond to incoming negative feedback as "we're only human" (and to be fair, that does need to be said / reminded to some people) when it doesn't really feel like that was kept in mind during the original video along with the actions they took in addition to it (I heard something about not giving the original company their prototype back as originally agreed upon, and instead selling it at a silent auction...?), but I'll put an asterisk on that opinion since I don't really watch LTT in general.
Now, I don't think that them giving their opinion on the product itself is a problem - as you mentioned, that is the purpose of a review. For me, when I watch reviews I'm not really looking for their final verdict (such as "Don't buy this product" or on the opposite token "Go out and buy this product now!"). Instead, I'm looking for the objective markers and testing of said product. I don't know Linus or anyone on his team personally (or even the random people who post reviews for products on Amazon) so realistically a final verdict doesn't really hold a lot of weight to me. There are a ton of cases of reviews where their use case or setup doesn't really match mine which further on makes a final judgment a bit like just noise to me. However, the facts and outlines that they provide in the review does matter to me because that allows me to make an informed opinion. Sadly this doesn't apply to everyone, and some people will take their final judgment at face value and as 100% fact, which can be really damaging to a product/brand when you're as large as LTT.
I'm not a hardware person (my strengths are pretty much all in the software side) but as far as I gathered, the GPU that they used for this waterblock (which I didn't even know what that was prior to all of this, I guess its a type of cooler?) wasn't even met for the product that this company designed so the whole premise of the review is basically "fruit of the poisonous tree" in my eyes, and is precisely the type of reason why I don't like final judgments/verdicts.
I work in the IT industry, and since we are a smaller company I've "worn a lot of hats" so to speak. My main task is to provide technical support to our customers but I've also been a part of other roles such as our internal development team, our internal (quality control/assurance/"HR") and external (customer escalation) supervision team. Since our target audience is a very wide audience due to the very specific IT space we're in, there have been a lot of occasions where there is someone whose using our services that (for lack of better words right now as I've just woken up) are using it for an unintended use-case.
I think its really easy for someone on our team's perspective to pull a classic Steve Jobs "You're holding it wrong" type of response, and when I was more focused on our internal supervision side of things one thing I heavily pushed for was "It's not the customer's fault if they got the impression that our service was meant to be used this way" - instead I pushed for improving the way we advertised our services whether on the actual advertisement side of things, or the "pre-sales advertisement" side. I think that's a core value that we've all generally held at my place, but when you're putting in your heart and soul to provide support to someone and they scream at you, its sometimes easy to lose track of that which is why I really do also feel for Linus in some of the comments that have been directed at him and his team. Vitriolic comments and death threats are by no means okay whatsoever, however (and I really don't like saying "however" here because I know that comes across badly given the prior statement - so to the potential reader, please don't misinterpret that) sometimes you do need to take some humility for the actual mistake that was made (and often that mistake wasn't intended or even directly your fault - but that doesn't mean that its the consumer/customer's fault either).
On a side note, since I mentioned Google's LLM "Bard", I asked it to review this comment and see what its thought on my comment was - I was actually a bit surprised that it seems to know about the situation that occurred here since it was so recent. If anyone is interested, here is what it said when I provided a copy of this comment. Honestly, I never thought to ask Bard to review a comment before I send it, seems like a great case for LLMs.
Yeah, I don't think they were directing that at fair, but negative criticism. Linus is very clear that he welcomes constructive criticism always. The "we're human" comment is, imo, clearly directed at the people going out of their way to just call them names and generally be shitty.
Hah, I mean, that's a big portion of the discussion we're having. Yeah, there was a "miscommunication" and the item was auctioned off for charity rather than returned. They explained in the video how it happened, and that prior to any of this blowing up they had already contacted Billet Labs about covering all costs associated with their mistake. It's an ongoing meme in the LTT episodes that the guy who fucked up sucks at his job and is always about to get fired. But in the explanation video, I got the sense that he wasn't really joking about not knowing if he was going to be fired this time.
Yes, a waterblock is strapped onto the CPU, water passes through it and takes heat away from the CPU, thereby cooling it. It seemed like in their rush to get the video out the door, they ignored several flaws in their testing setup (like choosing the wrong GPU), and then Linus just concluded it wasn't commercially viable anyway and didn't care to retest it. The larger issue people have with them is that they're setting too stringent of deadlines for themselves, and it's hurting the quality of their content. This just seemed to be a recent case that had collateral damage involved.
I think they've taken better steps toward that with the followup video I put in my edit. Also, that is really interesting that Bard knows about the situation. Afaik it's wrong about actually "returning" the waterblock, since it sold, but they have agreed to cover any associated costs. Hard to quantify those costs if it ends up ruining their company as Billet seemed to imply (they said that it was their "only" prototype or something. Maybe they mean "only one they have for demoing to reviewers"?) I wonder if Bard is "watching" youtube videos, or just getting an auto transcription or what...
I just wanted to say, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to me on this! It's helped me see things from a different viewpoint, and also come to the realization that perhaps part of my viewpoint has been at the very least, colored by what's been going on in the media. Generally I (at least I like to think) that I'm not as prone to that occurring, but this situation is a bit unique as I don't normally watch LTT/LMG's videos so perhaps I'm subconsciously "filling in the blanks" so to speak with what is being mentioned.
In regards to Bard and whether its actually "watching" videos or not, I do think that it's somewhat able to watch them. I asked it to identify what is the "musical term" for something that occurred at a timestamp for a song in the game Destiny 2's OST after providing a YouTube link - it told me that the term was "tintinnabulation" which was correct, and gave me an opinion on what it thought of the song in general. The interesting thing of course is that since its an OST, it is highly unlikely that there was say, an article or Reddit comment that it could cross reference to get that answer. I've certainly seen Bard hallucinate answers before (such as today when it gave me an rclone command that didn't exist) but I don't think that was one of those cases. It'd be cool to see Bard and other LLMs do an actual active search rather than just referring to its training set so that the answers are more accurate, but I suppose we'll see!
Woah, I feel like no one is talking about Bard, but that's pretty impressive. Will have to check it out. Cheers 👍