I sure do understand that in a war people are drawn into service against their will, it always has been like that. War sucks, that is out of the question and it surely is not the fault of the nation that is under attack.

Thanks for your sources. Without sources, anyone can go around and say anything. Especially in this day and age.

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org -3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

it always has been like that.

People were always hunted down on the streets and packed into vans by masked people (there is an entire new word for that btw, "busification") with the west cheering the man who does it as a great democratic leader? Huh.

it surely is not the fault of the nation that is under attack.

But it is surely the fault of the people being kidnapped, beaten, tortured and killed, right? I mean, you wouldn't support this happening to innocent people who never wronged you?

[–] B0rax@feddit.org 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I didn’t say I support it. But this is war. Who is at fault? The attacking nation. Russia. This is the enemy. They are at fault. It does not excuse the cruelties that are happening, but I sure think that it would be worse if the Russian army advances and murders and tortures civilians in the process like they have done already.

Sure, Zelensky might not be perfect, but I don’t think most presidents would do a better job.

To be clear: I hate that this is happening, I hate everything about it. I don’t have a solution and I don’t pretend that I know how to do it better.

[–] bobr@lemmy.libertarianfellowship.org 1 points 2 hours ago

I didn’t say I support it.

Well, thank you for that at least..

Who is at fault? The attacking nation. Russia. This is the enemy. They are at fault.

Russia is in no way at fault for Zelensky's actions. It was his and his alone choice to trap people in a country with active hostilities (so that he both has more cannon fodder to expense and more casualties to pin on Russia). It was his and his alone choice to kidnap people off the streets and send them to their deaths. The enemy for the people being kidnapped and sent to their deaths is Zelensky's regime and others who support that regime. Russia does a lot of terrible things, but all of what I originally commented is solely on Zelensky and those who support him. Putin is not trying to get me, my friends, my family and everyone I know killed, Zelensky does.

it would be worse if the Russian army advances and murders and tortures civilians in the process like they have done already.

Like they did in Crimea, Melitopol, Donetsk, Lugansk, etc. right (and like Ukrainian force did NOT do in Kursk)? Or are people on those lands still doing [relatively] okay and can move to Ukraine controlled territories at any moment, while those who are on Ukraine controlled territories are kidnapped off the streets and cannot leave? Should [for a Ukrainian] be tortured by Ukrainians be somehow more preferable than being tortured by a Russian? (Ukrainian parliament members said that there are many more cases like this, it's just the only one that managed to gain attention)