this post was submitted on 21 Jan 2025
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Theory? Marxism?
If you engaged with these things in practice and not from a chair you'd understand that something like
true educationis nonsensical. What definestrue education? Marxism is not concerned with that. Marxism is concerned with what's effective at creating a better world, a better people, a better society. Something as abstract astrue educationhas no basis in Materialism because it is an idealistic way to view the world.I think it's telling that you jump to assumption lumping in the PRC with reactionary states. It's a chauvanistic way to view a very real and flawed but still developing and strengthening socialist project that shines as a beacon of hope in modern history for it's ability to lift more than a billion people out of the most inhuman conditions.
Ultimately only time can tell the effects of this policy, but if hearts and minds are changed towards socialism again it will be because of it's material successes, not the PRC's ability to "brainwash" people.
Marxism doesn’t see education as some abstract idea of ‘truth’ but as a tool shaped by material conditions. The question isn’t whether education is ‘true’ but who it serves. Does it serve the status quo, teaching workers to accept their place in the system. In socialism, education should aim to empower the working class and build a society free of exploitation.
Marxism encourages critical thinking, not blind allegiance. If education in any state doesn’t help people understand and challenge class oppression, it risks serving those in power instead of the people.
Who is the ruling class in the PRC? What should the Proletariat do in China?
In the PRC, the Communist Party leads the state, but Marxism tells us to go beyond labels and focus on material reality. The ruling class is defined by who holds and uses economic and political power. If the Party and state genuinely reduce exploitation, improve living conditions, and build socialism, they fulfill a proletarian role. But if they prioritize maintaining power or allow inequality to grow, they act as a ruling class.
For the proletariat in China, their actions depend on their material conditions. If the system serves their interests, they should work to strengthen and improve socialism. But if exploitation exists, workers must organize, critically engage with the Party, and demand reforms that align with Marxist principles of dismantling class oppression.
It’s difficult to fully understand the proletariat’s sentiment in a context where opinions may need to be hidden and opportunities for agency could be limited. This makes critical analysis even more important to ensure that socialism actually serves the people.
This isn't an answer to my question, though. You're just vaguely gesturing at an imagined issue without doing any of the "critical analysis" you claim is important.
If you're genuinely a Marxist, you should be following the adage "no investigation, no right to speak," because all you're doing is signaling that this could be a problem without doing the materialist analysis to prove it.
If you're not a Marxist, why are you trying to lecture Marxists on Marxism?
I'm not sure I understand the disconnect. I don't see my discussions as being lecture. I've only thought to participate and hope I haven't broken some taboo.
Your initial comment questioned how the PRC's focus on education will look based on "entrenching compliance" as opposed to "liberating the working class." This fundamentally presupposes that the PRC isn't Socialist, yet without doing any legwork to bolster that claim. When pressed, you were even more vague, just saying we need to discuss it.
The PRC is Socialist, ergo educating the Working Class isn't out of "compliance," but because it is useful for the Working Class in steering the revolution that already gave the Working Class supremacy over Capital.
Tell me how that wasn’t frustrating & exhausting work 🎖️
The PRC being socialist would require that it aligns with the Marxist principles of worker control, class abolition, and revolutionary progress. Evidence suggests that the PRC's actions often prioritize state control and compliance instead of working-class emancipation. We shouldn't fall to beliefs, religion is the opiate of the masses after all
Why are you drawing a line between government ownership and central planning, and Proletarian Control? Government ownership and planning is the form of proletarian control, along with massively expanded worker protections and influence.
This is not analysis that you're doing. You're again being more vague, not explaining how government control is bad for Marxism or what "evidence" you have suggesting anything. As a consequence, your comments don't genuinely offer any clarity, but ask more questions than they answer. Same with your vague assertion that "falling to beliefs" is "religion" when the only one making unbacked assertions here has been you.
What of Marx have you read? What do you think a Socialist economy looks like?
In Marxist theory, socialism isn’t just about government ownership or central planning, it’s about proletarian control. For a state to be socialist, the working class must actively manage production and society, rather than being ruled by a separate elite or bureaucracy acting "on their behalf." State ownership can be a tool for socialism, but only if the state is democratically controlled by workers at all levels. Otherwise, it risks becoming state capitalism, managing production from above without true worker empowerment.
As for beliefs, Marx's critique of religion as "the opiate of the masses" doesn’t dismiss ideas but warns against illusions that obscure material reality and class struggle. Critical analysis means questioning whether a state truly represents the working class or functions as a new ruling class. A socialist economy would feature collective ownership of the means of production and democratic planning to meet human needs. The key question is whether the PRC fulfills this vision of socialism or prioritizes state power over worker control.
As for the spammy demands for credentials or a reading list, Marxism doesn’t hinge on gatekeeping or appeals to authority. Marx emphasized praxis, to analyze material conditions and power structures. The “true Marxist” argument doesn’t address the substance: does the PRC align with Marxist principles of worker control, class abolition, and emancipation, or does it serve a centralized state elite? The answers requires evidence, not dismissive rhetoric or an insistence on orthodoxy.
See, this isn't Marxist analysis, though. AES states have proletarian control at all levels, you simply change to calling them "elites" with no backing or class analysis.
As for the rest of your comment, you don't provide any of what you say is necessary, like evidence. This isn't a "true Marxist" argument, rather, it's you that's taking an ultraleft dogmatic interpretation claiming every application of Marxism is "false." I ask you to clarify what kind of Marxist you are because your analysis is divorced from the overwhelming majority of Marxists worldwide, and haven't provided any analysis.
One of the key aspects of Marxism isn’t just about state control or central planning, it’s about the active involvement of the working class in managing production and society. If a state is controlled by a small elite, even if it calls itself socialist, it risks becoming a form of state capitalism rather than true worker control.
This isn’t about rigid, dogmatic labels which I can't help but notice in your assumptions of me. What is interesting is understanding material conditions and power structures. Discussing any state, does it give the workers control or whether it serves a centralized elite.
I’m not claiming that any state is "false" without evidence. It's an examination of how power operates in those states and whether it matches the idea of socialism where workers are in control. Doesn't Marxist analysis require questioning these things, not simply accepting a label?
I think you're stuck on this idea of AES being controlled by an "elite," without doing actual class analysis. It isn't about being "called Socialist," it's about the proletariat being in power. State level planners are not distinct classes. We can see that, in the USSR, for example, the economy was democratized and the Working Class gained massive improvements in material conditions. This shows quite clearly that the Proletariat was indeed in power.
Marxism does require questioning. The problem you're running into is dismissing the opinions of a supermajority of Marxists worldwide with very little in the way of evidence, and you're making an error in class analysis. It isn't about accepting a label, it's the knowledge that social practice increases knowledge, and that therefore requires an understanding that practicing Marxists, whom overwhelmingly hold to lines such as Marxism-Leninism, likely know more about Marxism than non-practicing individuals on the internet.
Marx differentiates between workers directly managing production and a state acting as their proxy. Material improvements alone don't prove proletarian control, as state capitalism can achieve similar outcomes while concentrating power in a minority.
Marxism prioritizes dialectical analysis over majority opinion. Experience matters, and it must be tested against material conditions and theory. The opinions of the majority cannot substitute for class analysis. Even Lenin argued that revolutionary theory develops.
Also what the fuck even is this, this is illegible. Who fucking cares, you clearly don't know what you're talking about; are you saying that your imagined form of analysis you've named dialectical materialism is more meaningful than statistical facts showing widespread approval? That's nakedly really stupid, even if you're clearly an anticommunist it's feeble to try and hide it behind an absurdly thin veneer of Marxism. Just be honest and say you're a liberal, or start engaging with Michael Parenti's work.
Marxism emphasizes understanding the deeper class dynamics of society, not just surface-level opinions. Marx and Engels critiqued relying solely on immediate public sentiment because it can be shaped by ruling class ideology (eg., The German Ideology). A proletarian state requires scientific analysis of material conditions, not just popularity metrics. Insulting someone as "anti-communist" ignores Marxist principles of material critique over ad hominem attacks.
Socialism is not the electrification of Russia
Yeah, clearly, but you haven't proven it at all. The revolutionary conditions of the PRC have made it so that regular working people can engage with their government in ways impossible in the liberal world, I know from my own experience of being there and from studies like this one from famously CCP Elite backed Harvard which shows that the great masses of people are satisfied in their governance and feel engaged.
You can imply and say all day without evidence that the world's largest socialist country is purely in the hands of a ruling elite which comprises it's own economic class separate from the working class people it represents, but it doesn't make it true.
Socialism is more than material development. Marx and Lenin argued it requires the working class to democratically control production. Electrification or industrial progress is a tool, not proof of socialism.
High satisfaction with governance doesn’t prove proletarian rule. Lenin noted that oppressed classes can feel represented under non-socialist regimes. The Harvard study shows approval but doesn’t demonstrate that the PRC is run by and for workers.
Socialism requires more than material gains or approval ratings. Workers would collectively control production and the state to validate proletarian power.
What do you believe Socialism and Communism looks like? Where is the line between the "administration of things" as Engels describes it, and a state acting as proxy? You keep saying workers didn't have control, but by all accounts they did, and the material benefits prove this. You may want to read Soviet Democracy and Is the Red Flag Flying? Political Economy of the Soviet Union. The Material improvements are a symptom of the system at work, not proof of it but support the thesis. You have nothing supporting your thesis.
Dialectical analysis is important, yes, but just calling your analysis dialectical even if it stands in contrast with reality and the social knowledge of hundreds of millions of Marxists requires serious burden of proof. Marxism-Leninism is a science because it evolves, but simply going against the grain without materialist analysis doesn't mean you have a point.
Socialism is direct rule by the working class where the state fades away, as Engels described. A state acting as a proxy concentrates power in a minority and keeps workers from controlling production. Marx argued that the proletariat must destroy the old state machinery, not rely on it to act for them. The Soviet state kept a hierarchical structure that directed workers rather than enabling their control.
Material benefits do not prove workers were in control. Marx warned that state capitalism could produce growth while keeping power out of workers’ hands. Lenin himself criticized the growing Soviet bureaucracy after 1917. By the 1920s, workers’ councils had lost power to the Party and state officials. Gains can exist under exploitation if workers do not democratically run production.
Dialectical analysis means critically studying contradictions in a system. The USSR had contradictions like inequality and bureaucracy, which Marx predicted under state capitalism. Marxism evolves through testing theory against reality, not just following the majority, even when it challenges what many believe as socialism.
That's not what the state is in Marxist theory. Engels:
The State is chiefly the aspects of class society that enforce class distinctions, not government planners. Administration requires management and planning. Further, Engels:
Communism requires ever larger manufacturing, ergo it requires planning and administration. In the USSR, as an example, these were democratically run by the Soviets. Lenin's critiques did not mean the USSR was not Socialist, administration never formed a class. Read Soviet Democracy and Is The Red Flag Flying? Political Economy of the USSR.
The USSR was not "state capitalist," that's an entirely different concept. The closest would be during the NEP, which was later pivoted from in favor of collective ownership after the NEP served its purpose.
No, AES isn't perfect or free from struggle, but it is real, and you're attempting to define Socialism as perfect, and Capitalism as anything with hierarchy, including a publicly owned, democratically controlled and planned economy, which is so far beyond useless for understanding economic phases that it adds massive confusion.
The state is supposed to wither away as the working class takes control of production. Engels and Marx argued that the state, under capitalism, is a tool for maintaining class divisions, and this should end in socialism.
Socialism requires large-scale planning, but the key difference is that it must be managed democratically by workers, not a central bureaucracy. Lenin criticized the Soviet bureaucracy because it hindered true worker control.
The USSR state managed the economy without giving workers control. Even after the NEP, the state still controlled production without real worker participation.
For Marx, socialism means the working class collectively controls the economy, which wasn’t realized in the Soviet system. While there were gains, they came from a centralized authority, not workers themselves.
Despite state planning, the Soviet system concentrated power in the hands of a few.
Again, Engels literally stated that administrators are necessary for large industry. There's no difference between what Engels is describing here and the USSR's model of Political Economy, driven by Soviet Democracy. The government controlling the economy via worker-led democratic soviets is fully in line with Socialism and Communism, which must be global. You're making the same error as the Anarchists who wish the state abolished overnight.
Really, this is going nowhere because you are unfamiliar or deliberately ignoring the makeup of AES from a democratic perspective, and redefining Socialism as the impossible status of "perfectly represents Marx's principles." Marx himself would laugh.
Thank you for acknowledging this is going nowhere. As said multiple times, there are no perfection requirements, only an emphasis on aligning with Marxist principles. Beyond that, this has always been just forum posting, not a debate to win.
One thread is enough
AES does put an emphasis on following Marxist principles, when you made an assertion that I countered with clear evidence like the historical texts on how Soviet Democracy functioned and how the economy was run, you ignore them. This makes me think you care more for arguing than learning.
I have a better question. What specific part of Chinese education do you believe is so problematic that it undermines socialism?
Because otherwise we are just blowing smoke clouds past each.