this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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The West offered Zelensky a way out and to give up the moment the war started. He and his country refused and asked for weapons to defend themselves against a tyrant that will never stop. How exactly did the west force Ukraine to fight?
is this what the lastest stage of a copium addiction looks like?
Zelensky wasn't offered a ride out of Ukraine? Is that what RT tells you?
Holy shit. We're back to this? Do you also think that the ghost of Kiev will lead the Ukranazis to victory?
What? The west (and especially Boris Johnson) encouraged Zelensky to fight and encouraged him to drop the peace proposal (which included Russia going back to pre-2022 invasion borders!).
Just "He".
The west supports Zelensky's regime, which kidnaps people on the streets and sends them to die.
Zelensky could have fled. He refused. Ukrainians could have surrendered, they refused surprising everyone. Putin will never stop unless he is stopped. To support Ukraine surrendering is to support many many more Ukrainian deaths in the future.
No. We don't have a choice. We cannot even choose our president, much less choosing to end the war. We cannot speak out against our government (except anonymously like I do). People cannot even fucking leave their houses without fear of being kidnapped.
Then go to Russia, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to send you to the front to kill your fellow Ukrainian brothers and sisters, and it'll get you out of the "prison" that is supposedly Ukraine. 🙄
Wtf is the point of your comment chain? I've seen and heard no claims that Ukraine is kidnapping people off the street to be sent to the front, outside of Russian owned state media. The same media that hides and covers up the fact that Russia is doing exactly what you're describing to its own citizens.
Ukraine was invaded, and the country chose to defend itself as opposed to roll over and take Putin's boot on their throat. The invasion was begun under a completely fabricated claim about historical Russian boundaries. Zelensky and Ukraine have, to me, been nothing but up front about their motives, their rationale, and pride they have for their country.
I'm sure they'd be ashamed to know you think so little of your brother and sister Ukrainians, but then again, it sure sounds like you'd rather have a Russian boot on your neck than a Ukrainian uniform on your shoulders. Cowardly, and pathetic. I wouldn't spit in your direction, it'd be an insult to the spit.
lemmy worlds least deranged person telling an actual ukranian they should be happy to die for zelensky lmao
I fucking hate them...
Almost the entire Lemmy (with an exception of a few .ml and other instances) is telling me how I and my compatriots are happily dying for our glorious master Zelensky, while in reality we have to hide and/or flee, because we just want to live...
I don't know if they are truly evil and sadistic or just brainwashed by propaganda... What the fuck did we do to them to deserve this treatment??..
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to those who don't support this sadistic bullshit..
The prick is clearly an ex-american drone operator who thinks you should take pride in dying for some douchebag upper class ghoul like biden, zelensky or whatever genocider they stan currently.
Dont worry about it, they probably have various stages of PTSD from all the kids they blew up during the gulf wars and will either kill themselves or there famalies within the next 10 years.
If I were in Ukraine, I'd be wishing for opportunity to go to Russia, because it's one of the few ways to escape it... Thankfully I've left before the war started, so I don't need to.
Supposedly?? What the hell do you mean by that? https://theconversation.com/why-banning-men-from-leaving-ukraine-violates-their-human-rights-178411
And in the next comment you say:
Well, exactly so that you have a chance to see it, and stop thinking of yourself as a good guy who is helping Ukrainians while in reality you are helping to murder us.
Here is an archive with tons of videos of kidnapping people: https://uadraftmuseum.ch/
And inb4 you claim that this is Russian propaganda, here are links to other websites just with less content:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription
Well, I never claimed that Russia is the good guy here, but they are not doing exactly the same. They have conscription, but they don't fucking kidnap people from the streets (or at least on a way smaller scale..) and they don't turn their country into a mass prison that you can't leave.
Zelensky's regime decided to turn country into a mass-prison and kidnap people and send them to die. It is not "country choosing to defend itself".
My Ukrainian "brothers" either already escaped Ukraine, or are trying to, or just trying to survive there. The "sisters" left a long time ago.
What "Russian boot"? I might have missed what happened to people in Crimea, living under "Russian boot" for 10 years now... How many have died or been repressed? From Russia's hand I mean, not from Ukrainian shelling of Crimea..
But I mean yeah, obviously I'd prefer living under Russian boot than under Ukrainian boot, with Russian boot at least I'd not fear being kidnapped on the street and sent to die, and being able to freely leave a country sounds nice as well...
So again, pathetic and a coward, assuming you're from Ukraine at all, Comrade. 🙄
Huh, a country being invaded needs men to fight, who would've fucking thought. So what's your solution? End the war and let Russia have their way? Makes sense, it doesn't affect you in the slightest as a coward who fled his homeland and now comes online to trash it and defend the invaders.
Pathetic coward.
Right, so if the West stopped supplying arms to Ukraine to defend themselves against an unlawful aggressor, Russia will immediately stop the invasion?
Tell me, is that why Ukraine's military chooses to bomb and seek out strategic resources for their attacks, while Russia bombs apartment buildings and city centers? Yep, must be that pesky western influence that wants to check notes stop the authoritarian creep of Russia as they attempt to reclaim their Soviet satellite states.
You're right, the West is to blame for Russia invading another country, raping, and slaughtering its people. I'm sure the people being killed and injured in Russia's bombing attacks really wish the Russians would just take over already and turn them into second-class citizens, at fucking best.
Pathetic coward.
No, you are, because if you weren't, you wouldn't be defending Russia at all in any of this, because they are 100% in the wrong, from start to finish. And yes, they are doing exactly the same thing. Russia has pulled people out of their prisons and sent them to the front lines, so do they not count as people to you, because they're prisoners?
Russia has also been sending captured Ukrainian troops to the front lines, along with kidnapping their own men off the streets and sending them into battle with few supplies, if any. Like, are you fucking dense, man? Eyes wide shut kind of thing?
Pathetic coward.
Zelensky was elected by the Ukrainian people, it's not a fucking regime. And he went to war with the backing of his people. I'm sorry Ukraine was the first target Russia had in their quest to reclaim the glory that was the Soviet Union 🙄 But they are, and they could have chosen to bend the knee to Russia, or rightfully, defend themselves.
They, the people of Ukraine, chose to defend themselves, so fuck right off with this "Zelensky evil dictator" bullshit. He's not, he's just fucking not. If the people of Ukraine didn't want to defend their homeland, the troops would just surrender instead of fighting back, and they're fucking not.
So fuck right off, you pathetic coward, and I feel sorry for whatever country your cowardly ass ended up in. Hope they're never invaded, we'll all know the first person will be that starts sucking his invaders cocks down to the balls.
Oh well, writing more responses to you wouldn't make sense, clearly you're only here for personal attacks :/
At least I'm not selling out my supposed homeland to their invaders.
Pathetic coward.
'pathetic coward' as he berates someone for not going into a meat grinder to die for someone who wont hold elections
I think he didn't get it, he need to be reminded a few more times of how much pathetic and coward he is
Sure is brave of you to call people cowards for not fighting your battle.
Why don't you go to Ukraine and fight?
It's not my battle, my country wasn't invaded. His was, but he had already left, and refuses to go back and help, but defends the people invading his country. That's pathetic and cowardly, and spoken by someone in a position of privilege from foreign soil (again, he left before the invasion) but claims to speak for his countrymen and women actually living through the atrocities and attacks.
My country is supplying military aid to Ukraine via my tax dollars, so while I'm not directly fighting, my country and myself are assisting them in their effort to defend themselves against an unjustified invasion.
I am a veteran of my country's armed services, can you say the same?
I also never told him to go fight, but it seems pathetic and cowardly to sit behind a computer screen in another country, claim to speak on behalf of your home nation while propagating Russian-media talking points. So I stand by what I've said.
Do you think we'd be sending them weapons (and buying up their assets for pennies) if this battle wasn't yours?
They've also supported Israel. By that logic, you, personally are assisting them in genocide.
I will serve crack before I serve this country. Look at every military action in this country's history since WWII. In none of them were we the good guys.
Oh fuck off. He knows more about the situation than you do. He is right there experiencing it.
Welcome to the world under capitalism, guess we should just do nothing then, fuck all the actual people that live in Ukraine and have had their lives upended or destroyed because of the war.
Seriously? Fuck off with that bullshit.
Yep, and I'm fucking pissed about it. This discussion also isn't about Israel, so don't change the subject.
Edgy, wow, impressed. Never said we were, just said I've served, so don't put words in my mouth.
By his own admission, he left Ukraine before the invasion, so no, he isn't there experiencing it. He's safely in another country, acting like he understands what's going on in a country he currently doesn't live in. And then acts like he speaks on behalf of Ukraine when they democratically elected their leader, continue to fight against their unjustified invaders, despite apparently living in a prison-state worse than Russia.
While also claiming Russia is not actively engaged in the very same activities he is accusing Ukraine of.
So go fuck yourself, I don't know why you're defending some Russian troll.
They wouldn't have had their lives upended if we weren't doing everything in our power to prolong the war! This is the absolute worst case scenario for actual Ukrainians.
So you understand making the world a worse place isn't the gotcha you seem to think it is right?
The one who suspended elections after he got elected on a platform of peace and failed to end the civil war?
How many Ukrainians living in Ukraine do you know? I'm certain it's less than the actual Ukrainian right here telling you what the situation is.
You really don't give a shit about actual Ukrainians beyond their willingness to bleed for the profits of the military industrial complex.
They think war is when you drone strike a wedding and believes the above poster is a coward.
They dont actually care about Ukranians, they just want Russians to die.
They wouldn't have had their lives upended if Russia didn't illegitimately invade their homeland. Twice, in the last decade, I believe. I also don't know wtf you mean when you say prolong the war, if Ukraine stopped fighting now you don't think Russia wouldn't just go at it again?
So you understand that this discussion is about OPC and their view on Ukraine and the Russian invasion? I told you I served to answerbyour initial question as to why I don't go fight in Ukraine: I've already done my time in the service, was the implication you seemed to miss.
Trying another subject change isn't the gotcha you think it is, kid.
The one who's following Ukrainian law and listening to the general vibe of the country and the situation with the war?
Or the Zelensky who is open to the idea of having elections, but does not think it's a good idea based on both the law and I assume logistical decisions, like having mass groups if people located in small areas for extended periods of time during, say, a war.
Not being literate on the world stage isn't the gotcha you think it is, bud.
None, as does the very obvious Russian bot who's, like I said before, just propagating the same Russian State Media talking points that you've somehow fallen for. Sad, really.
Mm, no, I do give a shit about a sovereign nation defending themselves from a foreign aggressor, and reclaiming any illegally held territory going back to, idk, 2013-ish. 🤷♀️ If it was so important to the military industrial complex, why did the GOP actively fight to stop it? That's taken money out of the wealthy's purse, can't have that.
You also never answered why you're defending a Russian troll, so let's try again in a language you may understand:
Почему вы защищаете русского тролля?
I would love to see the source on that.
Sure! :)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_negotiations_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/bad-advice-ukraine-then-and-now/
Neither of those say Russia was willing to agree to pre 2022 borders.
Try again.
It quite literally says that (I assume its "willing" instead of "winning"), also linking to a source.. Quote:
Cede to Russian demands on a sovereign nation they have hostily invaded.
Your source refutes your bullshit "Western pressure" argument, Russian pressure was to literally invade and try to use Ukrainian territory to leverage against Ukraine.
Your source essentially ignores that the war could have "stopped" before it started off Russia didn't choose to invade a sovereign nation specifically to spite NATO. But no, you're right I'm sure if they just stop fighting and roll over Russia certainly won't invade again and pull the same shit again.
Your idealism or stupidity is almost admirably idiotic.
Quote needed :)
I've said that the west encouraged Zelensky to fight, and the part you've linked doesn't refute it.
"They" can fight all they want, till the last person standing if they want. They are forcing other people to fight for them though.
That would be political pressure dipshit, your negotiator explains Russia invaded to pressure Ukraine to not join NATO before the West could encourage zelensky to fight.
Who says aside from you and Russia.
I don't understand what this means. Who says what?
The fact you can't provide a source says that.
A source for what? That says what?
Even your own sources say they aren't being forced to fight, they get fined, imprisoned or renounce and seek asylum.
Your solutions are that of an especially dumb child that thinks every flight ends like a goddamn pokemon battle. Ain't no nurse joy out here boss, just dead children.
Oh right, because "fight or you will go to prison (where you possibly will be tortured)" is not being forced to fight... What kind of fucked up logic is that...
As for renouncing citizenship and seeking asylum - please send me an article that describes how an average Joe can do it. It's not possible.
Hold on now, your claim was that they're getting grabbed off the street and forced to fight. You offered sources, none of which say in any way that people are being grabbed off the street and forced to fight.
https://www.unhcr.org/ua/en/refugees-asylum-seekers
There's about a half dozen resources for it and aside from that your bullshit fleeing story only proves that leaving the country is possible. Russian appologism isn't a good luck pimpin.
My sources literally show people on the streets being kidnapped and forcefully put into vans... Did you open any of the articles I linked?..
As I already told you (and linked sources), it's impossible for an average Joe to renounce citizenship.
I left before the war started.
My family member left through the occupied territories, he had to lie to authorities that he had a reason to go there. So in the eyes of government he left the country illegally. Just like all the other people who leave through occupied territories or rivers/mountains. Or through giving bribes.
They show things claimed to be that, Sure. Partisans are also grabbed off the street because of the whole sabotage thing people aren't too keen on. Again, where's your first-hand account, if the percentage is so goddamn high you should have a firsthand account.
It isn't, linking a resource for finding asylum back to me doesn't actually do it say anything and "nuh uh" isn't a defense anyone but a child should be using.
So you didn't flee, you fucking moved ya dramatic bitch.
So again, people can leave by your admission. Your claim of minor risk in a literal warzone when attempting to dodge war service is astoundingly stupid.
It's like you think you're immune to the incredible violence as long as you think the rights thoughts and have a positive attitude.
Can you explain why all the evidence I've linked is not enough?
What are you talking about? I didn't link it back to you, I quoted you posting it - and replied that it is not possible to do.
I Ctrl+F my messages and didn't find myself saying that I fleed. You are the one who started saying this.
By that same logic people can leave North Korea. Is it true? Well yes, some people left North Korea, didn't they? Yet you probably wouldn't say that people are free to leave it. Then why are you saying that people can leave Ukraine?..
Because they aren't firsthand. You have videos without context. Not one single person who got grabbed is in any of those, the best you have is secondhand accounts of what people hear and then recount. You're taking those two and saying something is definitely happening and Ukraine is the devil worse so by your account then these kid killing invaders. Not possibly happening, not maybe but definitely.
We figured that out already, you mass quote and don't double couch or page break because clearly you're a psychopath. Again "nuh uh" is not an argument.
It is true, people leave though North Korea has always had a no emmigration policy. Remind me, is North Korea at war or are we intentionally picking dramatic examples. You've yet to pick that country so we can talk about how wartime governments are almost always authoritarian by necessity and why.
They are just as free as any other person you know aside from the whole having to dodge landmines, tanks, infantry, air cover, spy programs, drones.... But remind me, we people like yourself free to leave the country before the invasion of a sovereign nation? Remember your dramatic escape necessitates your answer.
Ed: there you go, you might edit all your comments but you have to be smart enough to catch the admissions as well.
I ask:
You respond:
You claim you fled, you moved you dramatic bitch.