[Outdated, please look at pinned post] Casual Conversation

One problem is that it's very socially unacceptable to mistake not-a-hint for a a hint. Maybe people should stop trying to 'hint' and be more direct.

If you get a “hint” wrong you could end up having a meeting with HR, being told to “fuck off, creep”, or some other negative result. So men might see what could be a hint, but the price of getting it wrong is too high for many reasons. So you either stop looking for them or just stop acting on anything that isn’t direct.

It’s also kinda the woman placing the responsibility and the work on the guy for making the “real” moves in an encounter or relationship. He needs to pursue her and pay attention, not the other way around.

I'm an autistic woman, and I've found great success in leaning into my autistic tendencies. By that, I mean just being blunt and upfront. One of my favourites is that if I've got chemistry with someone I don't expect to see again, before I bid them farewell, I'll give them a note with my number on and say something like "I had a great time hanging out with you tonight, would you like to go on a date with me sometime?" And then I hand them my number and scuttle off like a crab because I can only put on a cool face for so long before I crack under the anxiety.

I'm male, and bi. I'm about equally bad at picking up on hints from men and women, but it seems more common with men to just flat out state what they want, either immediately, or after I miss their clue, which I'd presume to be cultural.

I'm bad with social clues in general, so I dunno if it's a male-thing, or a me-thing.

Three things: one woman's "hint" is another woman's platonic behavior and "hints" are meant to be subtle so that they provide plausible deniability if there is no interest returned.

Dont blame us for not "getting" hints when part of the point is to be able to easily brush them off as not being signs of romantic interest. If you are interested in a dude, use your words.

And lastly, us not asking a woman out in response to her hints doesn't necessarily mean we didn't get the hints. It may just mean we aren't interested in that particular person and dont want to make it awkward.

We're not bad....we're careful.
Make the wrong call and you are considered a creeper or worse.

Nah, we pick them up, but false positives are way too dangerous to risk it.

Men cannot afford to go through the process of trial and error to learn to follow hints. The risks from misreading the situation are far too high.

I'm a bisexual trans woman. I've dated men and women while presenting as male, and as presenting as female. In my experience the whole "not picking up on hints/not leaving strong enough hints to be picked up on" thing is not a gendered issue.

Honestly I really don't think men and women are as different as they appear.

I think most men are so infamously dense because they don't want to misinterpret things. It's a really thin line to walk and falling might ruin a friendship or make things very awkward. Very good manners/kindness and flirtatiousness are very difficult to distinguish.

Making the first move and reading things wrong can really hurt, especially if the other party wants it too. I had a female friend that was very friendly, who'd hug and hold hands with me at times. Friends told me to go for it. When I did she told all of her friends and I was collectively humiliated by the whole school. You could say I dodged a bullet, but it felt like I was by a car.

I'm over it now but I'm now very risk averse. Unless somebody are practically yelling at me to date them, I will only assume friendly intentions

How am I supposed to tell that you're actually hinting and this isn't just you? I've literally had that happen where a girl seemed super into me. Constantly talking to me and coming up with every reason to be close to me or touch me. I asked her out and she had a boyfriend and I'm just like "alright I'm never asking a girl out again this shits infuriating"

So now I just don't even think about it much. Occasionally I'll see a pretty girl and want to interact with her but then remember my experiences and go back to not caring.

Be a fucking adult and express your desires and intents clearly.

Proviso, comment is based on old memories.

There was some research done on how women flirt. Women particularly put out IoIs (Indicators of Interest). These include things like hair flick, lip touching etc. When a woman is attracted to a man, the rate of IoIs goes up, sometimes 200-300% baseline.

Unfortunately, the catch is the baseline. Women vary widely on this. Some normally use 2-3/hour, others all the way up to 120/hour. This is where men can often get in trouble. A woman sending them 60/hour might be a 20 flirting outrageously, or a 120 who is actively disinterested. Trying to advance things will get vastly different results with these 2 women.

Because of this, a lot of men get risk adverse. Even if they pick up on the hints, they are not sure if they are reading them right. Conversely, a few men go the other way. These men tend to have a disproportionate, problematic effect on women. This is why most men don't think that sleazy, overly handsey men aren't much of a problem, but women vastly disagree.

Basically, men are stuck in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation. Even worse, the men who figure things out tend to find a good partner and pair up, taking them out of the pool.

To add to the confusion, what women say they want, and what actually works can be quite different. The same applies to men. However, since men are generally expected to make the first move, they tend to screw it up a lot more (and get burnt).

Hints are great if what you look in a partner is the ability to solve puzzles. Otherwise, they should be skipped. Proper communication is key to any successful relationship.

Anecdotally, I had two female coworkers that acted the same way around me, kinda flirty but in a more friendly way, I felt, rather than trying to hint at anything. One said "EWW" out loud when someone suggested we date, and the other told me way after the fact that she was super in to me and I should have made a move.

The women I've actually dated made an effort to make sure our feelings were not only known, but reciprocated before laying down the "rizz" too much. I have no problem lightly flirting with someone that has no desire for a relationship, its fun, but that can't be the only sign you're in to someone when it isn't even REALLY a sign for a lot of people.

I am 100% thick as bricks when it comes to picking up on hints directed at me.

But I have no problem seeing others flirting and one of them being oblivious to it.

That being said, now I am married I am ok with being oblivious.

Women resort to dropping hints when they're too scared to risk rejection by being direct.

I would say I’m reasonable at picking up hints, usually takes me about 4-10 years though.

"Why is this man so dense? He never responds to the subtle clues I carefully place behind a veil of plausible deniability."

If you're trying to make a move without making a move, that might be the reason he's not responding. You're asking him to take on all the risk of misinterpretation. At some point somebody has to be overt. If you're presuming it should be him, you should ask yourself why you think that.

I am terrified of making people uncomfortable, generally a lot more with women than men. Unless someone is very explicit, I will pretty much never act on a percieved hint.

It's true, I basically had to learn to be super blunt to men.

"I think you're cute, want to go on a date with me"

Because literally nothing else gets through :|

If all you can do is hint, you don't deserve to get laid. You have to put yourself out there if you truly want to make a connection.

If I interpret what I see as a hint in the wrong way, and actually act on that misinterpretation, it could almost trivially lead to my arrest, conviction, and likely incarceration. And any sort of record - even if I was exonerated - could do significant to severe damage to my life-long economic potential.

So I just don’t fucking deal with hints. The math just does not make that a viable option in any logical or rational way.

If you, as a woman, can’t come out and converse like a functional adult, imma just gonna ignore you wholesale like the immature, games-playing child you are.

Hints are bad, my relationships have all been with people who say what they want in plain English.

As a gay man and outsider on this issue, it seems mildly sexist. It's the kind of thing that fits in with the content at over at r/AreTheStraightsOk.

The assumption that women are giving hints all the time rather than just trying to get through their day seems wrong.

And the idea that men need to get better at figuring those hints out rather than leaving them alone also seems wrong.

But whenever I hear the issues which men and women who date each other face I am often baffled.

The hints are sometimes trash

I'm a woman and not so good at picking up anyone's "hints". And when I do try, it rarely ends up being the intended hint.

I don't even think it's true that men are particularly bad at this. Everyone is.

And I don't think hinting is automatically a negative thing like so many are implying. It just depends on your preference and then ultimately comparability. Hinting is a form of flirtation. Flirtation extends the tension period of romance/sex, and can add fun and excitement. Some people prefer a direct approach.

I hate the idea of hints. Because A. You then have to make the person your interested in make their own way towards you, and B. Then they have to notice it and then take a risk. I think it's FAR better, to give your crush an opening, serve them a line on a silver platter.

For example:
My wife was interested in me and she opened with:
"Am I too close?" To which I could've replied "nah you're good" or "yes, a bit" without any fuss. but, since I was also interested, I replied.
"Oh nonsense, if anything you're not close enough" which, can easily be dismissed as me being silly, but nope, she's interested. So she responds
'OH really? So how close can I get?"

Like, set up a romantic line. If there's a romantic line to be had. If they're interested, they'll take it.

I don't think anyone picks up on subtle hints unless they're constantly looking for them. And most people aren't looking for them.

Historically, I've been terrible at interpreting hints. These days, I often worry about whether these hints are genuine, leading me to assume they are simply being kind.

Whenever I attempted to decipher these hints in the past, I was invariably rejected. Consequently, as an adult, my self-esteem has suffered greatly. So much so, that with the last woman who dropped hints, I merely wanted to be friends. Five years later, I still think about it.

Needless to say, my job doesn't provide many opportunities to meet women.

I too suck at it.

If I am picking up on a vibe I don't go all in. I point at the elephant and say: look, I think I see an elephant. Is it really there? My eyes play tricks in me sometimes, but I could swear you brought this elephant with you into the room.

Then they will say: yes, I did, or no, no elephant.

And then you carry on, with or without the elephant.

I always pick up on women's hints... the next day, when it's too late.

I can tell when I’m being flirted with for the most part, but I can’t tell whether it’s flirting for fun, or they’re genuinely interested.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't