this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2023
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[–] judgeholden@hexbear.net 79 points 1 year ago (3 children)

yeah but they never annexed any land, so it's ok or something

[–] redhydride@lemmy.ml 33 points 1 year ago

Yep, it's all good as long as land wasn't annexed

[–] ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Who needs to formally annex land when you can install a puppet government, set up military bases for your decades long occupation, and rebuild the economy under the yoke of your own corporations.

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[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 49 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

A long time ago somebody linked me to a whole bunch of pictures and video from the invasion, and it was...Barbarossa-type shit. The image of the grinning American trooper hoisting his flamethrower in front of someone's doomed farm, while not gory, is it's own kind of horrifying. I highly recommend the article What I saw in Fallujah. It's tough to read but necessary, from someone who was there on the ground and outside the purview of official media.

CW war crimes, mass human suffering

From the article:

The military was maintaining a strict cordon around most of Fallujah. As I could not enter the city, I set out to interview doctors and patients who had fled and were presently working in various hospitals around Baghdad. While visiting Yarmouk Hospital looking for more information about Fallujah, I came across several children from areas south of Baghdad. One of these was a 12-year-old girl, Fatima Harouz, from Latifiya. She lay dazed in a crowded hospital room, limply waving her bruised arm at the flies. Her shins, shattered by bullets from US soldiers when they fired through the front door of her house, were both covered by casts. Small plastic drainage bags filled with red fluid sat upon her abdomen, where she took shrapnel from another bullet. Her mother told us, “They attacked our home, and there weren’t even any resistance fighters in our area.”

Victims’ testament

Fatima’s uncle was shot and killed, his wife had been wounded, and their home was ransacked by soldiers. “Before they left, they killed all our chickens.” A doctor who was with us looked at me and asked, “This is the freedom. In their Disneyland are there kids just like this?”

Another young woman, Rana Obeidy, had been walking home in Baghdad with her brother two nights earlier. She assumed the soldiers had shot her and her brother because he was carrying a bottle of soda. She had a chest wound where a bullet had grazed her, but had struck her little brother and killed him. In another room, a small boy from Fallujah lay on his stomach. Shrapnel from a grenade thrown into his home by a US soldier had entered his body through his back and was implanted near his kidney. An operation had successfully removed the shrapnel, but his father had been killed by what his mother described as “the haphazard shooting of the Americans”. The boy, Amin, lay in his bed vacillating between crying with pain and playing with his toy car.

Later, I found myself at a small but busy supply centre in Baghdad set up to distribute goods to refugees from Fallujah. Standing in an old, one-storey building that used to be a vegetable market, I watched as people walked around wearily to obtain basic foodstuffs, blankets or information about housing. “They kicked all the journalists out of Fallujah so they could do whatever they want,” said Kassem Mohammed Ahmed, who had escaped from Fallujah three days before. “The first thing they did was bomb the hospitals because that is where the wounded have to go. Now we see that wounded people are in the street and the soldiers are rolling their tanks over them. This happened so many times. What you see on the TV is nothing. That is just one camera. What you cannot see is much more.”

There were also stories of soldiers not discriminating between civilians and resistance fighters. Another man, Abdul Razaq Ismail, had arrived from Fallujah one week earlier and had been helping with the distribution of supplies to other refugees, having received similar help himself. Loading a box with blankets to send to a refugee camp, he said, “There are dead bodies on the ground and nobody can bury them. The Americans are dropping some of the bodies into the Euphrates River near Fallujah. They are pulling some bodies with tanks and leaving them at the soccer stadium.” Another man sat nearby nodding his head. He couldn’t stop crying. After a while, he said he wanted to talk to us. “They bombed my neighbourhood and we used car jacks to raise the blocks of concrete to get dead children out from under them.”

Another refugee, Abu Sabah, an older man in a torn shirt and dusty pants, told of how he escaped with his family, just the day before, while soldiers shot bullets over their heads, killing his cousin. “They used these weird bombs that first put up smoke in a cloud, and then small pieces fell from the air with long tails of smoke behind them. These exploded on the ground with large fires that burned for half an hour. They used these near the train tracks. When anyone touched those fires, their body burned for hours.”

This was the first time I had heard a refugee describing the use of white phosphorous incendiary weapons by the US military, fired from artillery into Fallujah. Though it is not technically a banned weapon, it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions to use white phosphorous in an area where civilians may be hit. I heard similar descriptions in the coming days and weeks, both from refugees and doctors who had fled the city.

Several doctors I interviewed had told me they had been instructed by the interim government not to speak to any journalists about the patients they were receiving from Fallujah. A few of them told me they had even been instructed by the Shia-controlled Ministry of Health not to accept patients from Fallujah.

It would seem insane to me that none of these people ever went to the Hague if I didn’t know that the US has already threatened to bomb it. As a kid I used to think international law was some solemn thing, now I see It's a comedy joker-troll

Fun fact: the Hague Invasion Act was signed in August of 2002

[–] Twink@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm waiting for fantasy movies about hunting down USA vets for their crimes like they make fantasy media about hunting down Nazi Germans.

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[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 46 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But they achieved all their objectives so well! /s

[–] Dee@lemmings.world 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

W raised the banner saying "Mission Accomplished" what more do you want? Jeez.

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[–] circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org 45 points 1 year ago (38 children)

Fucking shameful. I'm sorry world. Please know that many in the US condemn these wars, but there is very little we can do about them.

[–] PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net 49 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

By the standards of Reddit, we are all guilty for failing to overthrow the governing class and US citizens deserve to be bombed

I for one agree

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[–] pearsche@lemdro.id 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

didn't libya got turned into a slave trading nation, lol?

[–] ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml 41 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ya, America saw a rising star in Africa, couldn't exploit it, and kicked it over a millenia into the past. You aren't allowed to prosper unless American corporations get the biggest slice of your pie.

[–] SoyViking@hexbear.net 29 points 1 year ago

Millions might have died but a few arms dealers made a lot of money so who can really say if the wars were good or bad?

But we defeated the Taliban and turned Afghanistan into a thriving democracy, right? Right??

[–] MariaRomanov@lemmy.sdf.org 30 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Bush should be in jail for Iraq.

Regarding Afghanistan, we should have focused exclusively on counter-insurgency and let the Loya Jirga do its thing without US interference.

[–] huf@hexbear.net 47 points 1 year ago

regarding afghanistan, you should've left it the fuck alone you imperialist

the more your shit government meddles there, the worse it gets.

the way to fix the cold war era meddling isnt to go in and kill a lot more people, it's to stay the fuck away.

also give them back their fucking money.

[–] SeborrheicDermatitis@hexbear.net 36 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The Taliban were willing (after a bit of threatening and cajoling) to hand Osama bin Laden over to a third party for him to go to trial. There was no need to invade based on the justification as the Taliban were genuinely afraid of the invasion and were willing to co-operate, just as they have been now. In the end, the invasion did nothing anyway and Al Qaeda's peak came AFTER the Taliban was toppled. There was never any chance of a cohesive post-Taliban government emerging from the Northern Alliance. By this point the US had decided on war and the whole MIC machinery was rolling, so it was too late to turn back (as US leaders thought, with their reliance on a captured media and lobbying from the MIC creating strategic liabilities within the US state).

The invasion was not necessary for US security aims and certainly could never have bettered Afghanistan, though.

[–] huf@hexbear.net 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

did they already plan to use afghanistan to export muslim extremism into xinjiang when they planned the invasion, or did they come up with that idea later?

[–] Dr_Gabriel_Aby@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think they already had been, Uigyurs were fighting in the Soviet-Afghan war on the side of the muhajadeen and then brought that violence home in the 90s

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 year ago

CIA was heavily involved in creating the Afghan war though, Afghanistan would look like Vietnam or Cuba today if not for that.

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[–] brain_in_a_box@hexbear.net 32 points 1 year ago

Or just not launched a war of aggression at all.

[–] horse_called_proletariat@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

war is just a way for businesses to shore up their falling profits. destroying another country gives victor companies chances to rebuild, which temporarily shores up profit rates because so much capital is destroyed and the creation of new capital during the windup phase actually increases the rate of profit for a little bit. there are other techniques as well. that said, the corruption was so rampant that they didn't even execute that well. either way the human costs of continuing to run capitalism as usual are staggering and wars are one of the many facets of that. all the other explanations and media outrage etc and just cover stories to make it palatable for the public, which has already believed the big lies about democracy and freedom existing under capitalism

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[–] sik0fewl@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Osama bin Laden was found in Pakistan, so maybe they didn't need to invade Afghanistan at all.

[–] Fuckass@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Even Bush seems to think so. During a state dinner he “accidentally” said that Russia’s invasion in Iraq is unjust. Then he corrected himself, smiled, and everybody in the room laughed. It’s absurd that anyone, including Osama himself, can think that the US can be changed for the good without destroying all the institutions and rebuilding.

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[–] Chapo_is_Red@hexbear.net 28 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Inevitably with the passage of time you move on to other topics and while this is happening you focus on narrower more specific effects. But this is so damn infuriating because it's exactly what EVERYBODY SAID WOULD HAPPEN. Early 2000s when these American wars of adventure started you had people saying this would be destabilising, encourage the very terror supposedly being fought against, cost the US themselves mountains of treasure, degrade their reputation and put them on a path of decline. In the lead up to Iraq many warned that this would be destabilising for the whole world as well as the nation of Iraq itself, that it would make things more dangerous globally, create power vacuums and breed generations of resentment and hatred and it clearly has. This is not to even mention on top of it all, the absolute monumental human tragedy it has wrought. This was stupid, stupid, stupid decision making.

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 13 points 1 year ago

Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of all this cheap oil, I mean, freedom! Bringing freedom to these rich oil, I mean freedom starved countries! - 'murica in the 2000s

Thing is, the USA has been pulling this kind of shit for a long time. The Kingdom of Hawaii being overthrown is a very good and old example, dating back to 1893 for the coup and 1898 for the incorporation. The Philippines being denied their independence for almost 50 years after the Spanish sold them out in 1898 is another example. The USA is an unrepenting reoffender when it comes to fucking other countries.

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[–] lntl@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 year ago (8 children)

This article is one sided. Doesn't discuss any of the economic benefits of these actions. Only communist things like megadeaths and habitat destruction.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

All of that as revenge for the death of 2977 victims...

[–] Chetzemoka@kbin.social 20 points 1 year ago (5 children)

All of that as revenge for Saddam Hussein humiliating an insecure cowboy's daddy, let's be honest here.

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