What kind of backhanded EV misinformation bullshit is this?
Electric, gas, petrol, hydrogen, diesel, cooking oil or vodka; what you put in your car to make it go makes no difference to the tires or the wear.
this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2024
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It does. EVs are much heavier due to battery weight and have more power and torque. Which all results in more tire wear.
2023 top 5 vehicles sold in USA and weight:
1 - Ford F-150 4069-5697lbs
2 - Chevrolet Silverado 4400-6947lbs
3 - Ram pickup 4765-6440lbs
4 - Toyota RAV4 3370lbs
5 - Tesla Model Y 4416lbs
Looks like the only electric on the list is below the average weight. We don’t have these conversations about the trucks.
Wow, that's an impressive list of amateur tanks. Do they also sell real cars in the US? (Rhetorical question)
Trucks are a whole other issue into themselves, though. Not just the tire wear, but their terrible fuel economy.
That's a list of a bunch of trucks compared to a midsized SUV, so you're kind of proving yourself wrong. Cars are split into weight classes, so a comparison that doesn't acknowledge that isn't very useful. A EV Sedan is on average much heavier than an ICE sedan.
No one's saying ICE vehicles are better for the environment than EVs
Those are the most sold vehicles in the US, when you have heavy EV’s in the top slots you can say that heavy ev’s are a problem… until then it’s what you are buying is causing the problem.
Just because something isn't the biggest problem doesn't mean it's not a problem worth talking about.
I agree entirely, but the title of this post suggests that EVs are the problem, but actually it’s heavy vehicles.
Additionally when we say “problem”, particulate pollution from vehicles is 99.9% a diesel problem, and 0.1% a tire problem. (Not actual statistics but let me know how wrong I am with the actual stat)
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EVs are much heavier due to battery weight
That's not inherently true. It's most true for grossly oversized and inefficient EVs. Which is unfortunately most of what they build today.
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You're getting down voted but you're right. I don't think people realize that most tires are now made from synthetic rubber, AKA plastic.
Also someone tried to disprove you by posting a list with ICE trucks being as heavy as EV cars. Like what? Of course trucks are heavier. EV Trucks are even heavier than that and an EV subcompact will be much heavier than an ICE compact. Also everyone is talking about how trucks and SUVs are getting heavier and bigger. So not sure what they mean by "we never talk about this with trucks!"
That is a list of the most sold vehicles in the US. Where are the people lining up to say the ICE trucks that are so popular are causing all this tire pollution?
This is false. They aren't really that much heavier, 1k lb or so. It's not the weight that tears up tires it's the instant and 100% torque when you hit the accelerator. If you go easy on the launches your tires will last longer.
Hey man, it's got nothing to do with them being heavier, it IS about how that weight is distributed differently. You've mispoken and now everyone is latched on to something that isn't true about something that is true.
EV tires are made from different compounds then truck and car tires which causes them to wear ~20% faster.
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EVs have instant torque delivery, which can put more strain on the tires during acceleration. Therefore, they need EV tires that can handle the increased force and extra weight.
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Electric vehicles have heavy battery packs, affecting the overall weight distribution. This can impact tire wear, so EV tires are designed to carry and distribute the extra weight effectively.
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EV tires are engineered to have lower rolling resistance. These tires reduce the energy required to move the vehicle, resulting in better range and longer battery life.
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Most EVs use regenerative braking systems, which recover energy during braking. EV tires offer better traction and grip, enhancing the effectiveness of regenerative braking.
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Electric vehicles are generally quieter than traditional ICE vehicles. To complement this characteristic, EV tires are built to reduce road noise and vibrations, providing a quieter and more comfortable ride
From the article:
In an EV era, tires are becoming the greatest emitters of particulate matter
The point being that electric drops tailpipe emissions to zero, making tires the next target for reducing emissions.
That explanation is fair enough but the headline is red meat the the EV disinformation brigade.
That explanation is fair enough but the headline is red meat the the EV disinformation brigade.
It's funny how words affect people differently.
Not long ago, I posted a short, precisely-stated comment mentioning an observed fact that I had verified with a relevant authority. When I later checked in, I was surprised to find someone accusing me of spreading misinformation, and my comment removed by a moderator. It was clear that my accuser had badly misinterpreted my words. He refused to admit it or accept clarification. (And the mod had already acted, rashly.)
I re-checked what I had written about twenty times over the course of the day. There was nothing there to support the accusation. My best guess is that my phrasing or the subject matter might have touched on rough emotions from a bad experience, leading him to see what he expected to see instead of what I wrote, and triggering attack mode.
Communicating well really is complicated. It takes work on both sides, and can quickly turn into a bad time if it goes off the rails.
Because of this, I've been making an effort to read (and re-read) charitably, especially with people I don't know well.
That’s a terrible thing to say!
…Only joking.
I tried to buy an EV for my parents a couple of weeks ago and the dealer had the EV misinformation playbook memorised and tried to convince us that EVs were a fad and that should get a hybrid until Hydrogen takes over.
I’ve decided that whenever I see these common myths, I’m not going to just let the misinformation go unquestioned.
In this case I think specifically focusing on EVs will generate more clicks for article writers, but it does also feed a common anti-EV narrative that they are somehow worse than ICE cars because of tire wear, which is not true.
I do see the other side that the tires being developed are specifically looking at EV owners, so this is a tough one to get the balance right on, but I do still think the headline is written to stir trouble and generate clicks.
One thing is certain, America needs to stop buying so many trucks!
That sentence and headline are completely wrong though. Tires already are one of the greatest emitters of particulate matter even with ICE cars in mind, because this is a general car issue and cannot really be directly resolved. An improvement would be less weight. If cars were smaller and consequently lighter, then they'd pollute less. But unfortunately we are still going the opposite direction and cars are still getting fatter and fatter, just like the people driving them.
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It’s dumb, but I think the author was trying to say, “we have an emissions solution for the motor, and now it’s worth exploring where else we need to address emissions for motor vehicles.”
And now to make lighter EVs that don't wear on the road so much.
And now to make lighter EVs that don’t wear on the road so much.
Tesla Model 3 Long Range (as an example) weighs in at 4,034 lbs, while the Ford F150 is 4,391 to 5,863 lbs.
Shouldn't we start with the majority of ICE vehicles which already weigh the same or more than EVs?
Just because a Ford truck weighs a lot doesn't mean we shouldn't address EV tire wear.
Do a lot of people own trucks that shouldn't because they don't use them as trucks? Yes. I'd argue that's a completely different argument.
This isn't an EV only issue, but it is highlighted for EVs because they go through tires faster than equivalent sized (not weight) vehicles.
In the end I would hope all vehicles would be equipped with tires that don't kill aquatic life!
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A model 3 to an f150 is absolutely apples and oranges.
The cars might be, but their weights are their weights and that is an apples to apples comparison in the context of
And now to make lighter EVs that don't wear on the road so much.
Why not just compare the model 3 to an 18-wheeler then? Those weigh way more. Would have made his point better.
And it's a completely meaningful comparison, as long as you throw away the fact that different vehicles are used for different things.
Why not just compare the model 3 to an 18-wheeler then? Those weigh way more. Would have made his point better.
And it’s a completely meaningful comparison, as long as you throw away the fact that different vehicles are used for different things.
They're designed for different things. While I'll agree that the many F-150 drivers are using them for their appropriate grade of work or towing, I'm guessing there are more F-150s that are used as grocery-getting-pavement-princesses than all the Tesla Model 3s ever sold.
In that way, F-150 is identical to Tesla Model 3 as far as use case.
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go back to wooden cart wheels
It's going to be all about the price.
My hybrid recommends "eco" style tires to get the best gas mileage. Those were $100 more, per tire, than the standard low-profiles. At the time, I commuted about 110 miles/day, so tires typically only lasted me about a year before they were either officially worn out or too worn to be safe to drive in winter.
I only noticed about a 1-2 MPG loss with the "standard" tires versus the "eco" ones that came with it. Over the course of a year, I doubt that 1-2 MPG added up to the $400 difference.
So, these cleaner tires are a good thing, assuming they're not more expensive than current-style tires.
Yeah, that closing point is likely gonna be screwed by economies of scale. You need more adoption for the price to fall and with the price high you won't see that large adoption. So, I suspect we won't see those prices until many more EVs are on the road.
Price is definitely important, but so is traction. If stopping distance increases because eco materials grip less, that would be a concern.
My criteria are performance results, wear rating, and price.
I wouldn't think stopping distance would be noticeably impacted by less rolling resistance. My original "eco" tires stopped the same as the standard ones. They're "eco" because they have less rolling resistance and are slightly lighter.
Plus, with ABS, you're not likely to lock the wheels up such that the decreased resistance would be significant.
On slick roads would be my only concern, but a good and season appropriate tread should mitigate that.
My original "eco" tires stopped the same as the standard ones.
No they didn't.
They're "eco" because they have less rolling resistance and are slightly lighter.
They have less rolling resistance because they're made of a harder compound, with reduced grip.
Plus, with ABS, you're not likely to lock the wheels up such that the decreased resistance would be significant.
...huh? ABS has nothing to do with rolling resistance...
No they didn't.
In a strictly technical / laboratory sense, maybe not. But in practice, they stopped just the same. I also slow down to a stop (regen braking is amazing) and don't slam on my brakes at a stop light (like some drivers I routinely scowl at). And driving through the country and having to slam on the brakes when a deer jumps out (which was common where I lived), I noticed no appreciable difference in stopping distance between the two tire types.
...huh? ABS has nothing to do with rolling resistance...
ABS prevents the tires from locking up and skidding (anti-lock braking system, hence the name). Under normal driving conditions, it merely helps you maintain control, but on slick roads, locking up the wheels can skid you further than without it. So, no, ABS doesn't directly relate to rolling resistance, but it's part of a system along with the tires that contribute to stopping distance....which is what I was talking about.
In a strictly technical / laboratory sense, maybe not.
In every sense they do not.
I also...don't slam on my brakes at a stop light
How you drive under normal conditions has absolutely nothing to do with the capability of the tires in an emergency situation, which occurs regardless of how good or careful you are.
I noticed no appreciable difference in stopping distance
You won't if you don't get out and measure it. But I guarantee it is there regardless. The difference, regardless of how noticeable, can easily mean the difference between life and death, or even crashing at all.
In a car with ABS, two sets of tyres with different grip will have a different point at which tyres lock up, with grippier tires locking up later and ABS letting the brakes bite harder before acting.
Now a harder question is whether a tyre with less rolling resistance will be less grippy. All things equal, yes, it will. Tyres grip by deforming and creating friction in the contact patch, and the point of these tyres is to reduce friction.
To make up for this, manufacturers use clever designs (e.g. where tyres can deform more under certain conditions) so that they can retain characteristics similar to tyres with more rolling resistance. Of course, everything in engineering is a compromise, which means that A) these tyres are more expensive because of the additional complexity and B) the design and materials science can only go so far and they have indeed slightly less grip; otherwise all the tyres would be like this.
As an anecdote, Toyota sold the GR86 with Michelin Energy Saver tyres fitted as standard (in Europe at least) for "grip" reasons: they allowed the car to drift at really low speeds (some car journalists commented that it was remarkably easy to take roundabouts sideways at legal speeds).
It’s going to be all about the price.
EV or not, price the pollution into the cost of buying the tire. Then the economics of a non-polluting tire would be the primary driver for adoption because they would be cheaper than polluting tires.
Please do the rest of the math and put a number on the actual comparison.
28,600mi/yr (wow, BTW) - 110mi x 260 working days a year
What were the actual mpg's and costs for the eco and regular tires?
And how heavy is your hybrid?
Yeah, make them out of metal, that rolls on metal roads. And those metal tires can carry a ton more weight, so put a lot of people in them who are going the same way.
Oh right, we already have those.
Though “those” are wildly inaccessible and/or unrealistic in parts of the world.
Definitely realistic, just not as profitable for rich billionaires.
Agreed, I edited my comment for clarity.
That's a policy issue, not one of engineering or physical constraints.
Agreed, I updated my comment for clarity.
No, there are definitely physical and engineering issues, like massive rolling mountains and valleys, or island chains or deserts whose sand is unsuitable to durable railways.
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Hot take: tire particulates are a conservative anti-EV talking point. "My V8 mustang weighs less than an EV, therefore its better on pollution than a EV because tire particulates". Totally disregarding the impact of tailpipe emissions.
It seems pretty obvious, but also, it would be nice to see improvements in this area.
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