this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
538 points (87.7% liked)
Asklemmy
43963 readers
1194 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy ๐
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I don't know what or if there are any cannon explanations, but I always had understood force as well... force. Bludgeoning, piercing, slashing are damage amplifiers that make do with limited force. But if you trying to damage say, a rock, they are basically irrelevant. But you put a rock in a hydrolic press and apply a enough force, and boom it cannot withstand. So being hit by an eldritch blast is less like being shot and more like being hit with a high pressure oil leak.
Physically this doesn't make sense. Bludgeoning piercing slashing all have effects on breaking a rock.
A hydraulic press is just a slow application of high forces from a pressure trick.
Getting hit by a high pressure oil leak can certainly resemble being shot.
See, as an example, water jet cutting
Physically its all same force, electromagnetic, but I think it misses the point. Nobody thinks that lightning is the same as slashing.
They have different physical modes of action, yes, but "force" doesn't describe a distinct mode of action.
We know what the damage type of a crushing force is in 5E, though. It's bludgeoning. That's why the grasping hand effect of Bigby's hand does bludgeoning, as does any constricting attack from the likes of giant snakes.
High-pressure fluid jets can cut through things if sufficiently narrow and fast, but at that point you're still just looking at piercing or slashing. The injury isn't different to being poked with a sharp stick other than that you are also wet now. If it's not enough to cut with... well that's bludgeoning again
High pressure fluid injuries are significantly different, but we're moving off track.
Let's come from the other direction. Bludgeoning, slashing and piercing all do damage through the application of force. However, the damage they do is amplified and relise on a particular susceptibility of the victim.
Bludgeoning amplifies is force through rapid impact time.
Piercing amplifies is force through a sharp hard single point.
Slashing is more complex, but it amplifies with a sharp hard edge kinda.
But these 'tricks' to deal more damage don't work on everything. For example bludgeoning requires 'inelastic deformation' before movement. I.e. a bat breaks a skull but not a tennis ball. I can see why crushing is put in this category, it recognises that damage is due to the susceptibility of the target to be inelastically deformed (bruised, broken bones, crushed organs w/e). Everything has an inelastic deformation point, put a tennis ball in a press and you can crush it. But in this case it's not that the ball is susceptible to bludgeoning damage, it's just that you have applied lots of force.
Same with piercing, the effectiveness of a spear is reduced by something that can distribute its force over a larger area. Which doesn't matter if the 'spear' has a huge amount of force behind it. At which point it doesn't matter if it was a spear with a sharp point or just a rod (or jet of fluid).
Bludgeoning clearly doesn't have to be rapid, since it is used to represent plenty of slower crushing damage. Every constrict attack is bludgeoning and so is the rug of smoethering's smother attack, the rolling sphere trap in the DMG does bludgeoning when it runs someone over (it has to enter the creature's space to do damage, it knocks them prone, and it's going way too slowly for it to be the impact), Bigby's hand does bludgeoning when you use it to crush someone with grasping hand, and Maximilian's earthen grasp also does bludgeoning while restraining. So given the significant precedent, it seems far more reasonable to describe the tennis ball as having a higher AC than the skull, and maybe resistance to bludgeoning damage. You can absolutely still do bludgeoning damage to it.
So based on that, bludgeoning damage is just any physical force applied in a way that won't typically pierce or cut a target; I can cut a block of soft butter by pressing a rolling pin through it, but edge cases (no pun intended) like aren't really useful for general purpose rules, so we say a rolling pin does bludgeoning damage when you hit me with it. We can apply this to the oil jet just the same: is it focussed enough to cut in to most targets? Piercing damage, maybe with some necrotic damage if it's some nasty oil that would be very bad to have getting inside you like that, as is often a complicating factor in high pressure fluid injuries. If it's less focussed than that but still hitting with enough force to hurt you, then we say it's bludgeoning, just like a marid's water jet attack or the tidal wave spell. Either way it's not doing some mysterious force damage that doesn't have obvious parallels in the other mundane damage types.
Ok, so I don't think I explained my thoughts on crushing well. It's not, in the real world, bludgeoning damage. I can see why they chose to not have a crushing damage type and just use bludgeoning though, as anything susceptible to one would be susceptible to the other.
Ugh, bringing AC into it is a mess. But I think your approach results in the tennis ball lasting an average of 20 hits in a game between two strong opponents. And less time the better they are at playing tennis?
I think you've moved the goal post, but perhaps in an interesting direction. If the goal is to simplfy the damage types, what do you lose by replacing force attacks with other types? I think you lose an impact type of damage like damage to creatures you can't hit with a hammer. Magic missle goes from best to worst spell.
You'd only treat playing tennis as attack rolls on the ball if you were trying to damage it, which I presume you're not. What it would actually mean is that anyone coud eventually break a tennis ball by trying to crush it. But tennis balls do eventually break with enough use anyway, so if you do want to handle it that way then the problem just lies with the fact that we don't have a way to make attacking something have a chance of success between 0% and 5%. That seems more reasonable to me than a brontosaurus being completely unable to squash a tennis ball by stomping on it, which is what immunity would mean
I don't think it's fair to say I've moved the goalposts. My original point was that force damage is poorly defined and described in game, which I stand by whether it should be distinct from bludgeoning or not; I'm not saying all force damage should just be bludgeoning. Only the examples where it's clearly extremely similar to stuff that already does do bludgeoning. There is no actual description of the effects of force damage available, and many notable things that deal force damamge seem to be described in a way that would imply B/P/S damage. Bringing up AC is just me explaining why I think your example doesn't work. What you're describing already has a mechanic in game that is not related to damage types.
Magical B/P/S damage is pretty reliable. Magical bludgeoning is only resisted by about 50 published creatures, a good number of which are swarms, so it's still almost as reliable as it is with force damage. Not to mention that the best part about magic missile is causing multiple guaranteed concentration saves, and that still happens if the target has resistance. A bludgeoning magic missile would even get to work with the vulnerability to that damage type that most skeletons have! And if that really does make the spell too weak to be useful... okay, buff it? Have it do 1d6+1 instead of 1d4. I don't think you'd need to, but it's clearly no trouble to make it stronger. Of course, you don't need to make everything that does force damage into bludgeoning anyway. Have eldritch blast do different damage types depending on who your patron is, that'd be cool.
If you really think that losing a specific damage type that almost never interacts with resistance, immunity, or vulnerability, you could just give whichever attacks and spells you wanted a trait that says it ignores those things. That way everyone is actually clear about what it does too, rather than just expecting players to gradually learn enough of the Monster Manual and other books to realise that force does that. What we gain by dropping force damage is an easier time for DMs to properly describe injuries and more reason for everyone to actually pay attention to what damage types work against different targets (indirectly buffing sorc's metamagic feature to change damage types too, since the elemental damage types are no longer strictly outclassed by force damage). All I want for this option is a clear definition of what the damage type does that is actually supported by the flavour text and mechanics. At the moment it's weird that I'm not "supposed" to desribe steel wind strike, which literally requires the caster to wield a melee weapon, as actually cutting anything