this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023
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"your narrative", K.
Here is evidence of Hamas telling Palestinians to stay put https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-tells-gaza-residents-stay-home-israel-ground-offensive-looms-2023-10-13/
Here is evidence of Israel giving 24 hours notice before bombing and saying that the bombings will not stop until all hostages are released https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120042
Here is evidence that neighboring countries do not want Palestinian refugees https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/war-in-israel/jordan-egypt-palestinian-refugees/
Here is evidence of why neighboring countries don’t want Palestinian refugees https://m.jpost.com/middle-east/70-years-ago-jordans-king-assassinated-by-palestinian-on-temple-mount-674480
All this evidence is painting a very complicated picture. One that shouldn’t be fought over like a sports game.
This needs context, because it's even more complicated. They're worried about a second Nakba, if Palestinians evacuate they will likely never be allowed to go home.
And zero guarantees that the bombings won't resume after the hostages are released. Giving up their only leverage would be foolish. By keeping the hostages they are strategically destabilizing Israel, because it makes Israelis unhappy with their government. Knowing your government is going to kill your family has an effect on people, regardless of the reasons.
Again, more complicated. They can't handle a million+ extra people, especially when they'd be coming with nothing but the clothes on their backs. The burden of a refugee crisis could actually collapse Egypt, they can't afford this.
If Israel gave a shit they'd take refugees into Israel itself.
It's complicated, but it's not inexplicable.
This entire argument was spawned because a commenter pointed out that no, Israel is not going to let a group that effortlessly blends in with the civilian population into their country. Thank you for at least addressing my points. A lot of this comes down to who do you trust? I really don’t trust either side personally, but from all the research I’ve done I’ve found mountains of evidences of intense hatred of Jews in this region long before WWII. I’ve found mountains of evidence pointing towards the land being bought legally prior to the 1948 declaration of war. If you are interested I can provide multiple sources for you about it. I don’t have an agenda and I’d like to see a ceasefire. I just want people to be informed.
You're talking about the the First Aliyah, and the anti-Jewish sentiments that arose in response were inherently tied to the Zionist nationalism among the new migrants who wanted to eject Arabs to form a Jewish ethnostate.
Zionism has always been a racist project. It smears all Jews with the crimes of the Zionist entity and directly and intentionally raises antisemitism around the world, forcing Jews to flee to Israel to become settlers. That's partly why the global North supports it so strongly - it gets the Jews out of their countries.
The other reason is it whitens the so-called Middle East by injecting them with American and European settlers, and gives the empire a strong position in the region.
The racial component is definitely complicated, but Zionism is unquestionably wrong and racist and must be opposed. What is needed is a single multi-ethnic democratic state, not an Arab state or a Jewish state.
What? I'm pretty sure the British fucking stole it from the Turkish occupation, the Palestinians never had self determination.
I’m not talking about the Aliyah, I’m talking about the persecution of Jews in that area for 1000s of years. https://i.imgur.com/kl9n1jT.png
How can Zionism be a racist project when it is a mixed population with the majority being of middle eastern descent? https://i.imgur.com/9laOetm.png
Forgot to address your final point my apologies. Here is one of many pictures that can be found of Jews purchasing the land https://i.imgur.com/5fYx5Ud.jpg
What you said about the British stealing it may be true but why place the blame on Jews? The man in that picture doesn’t look British. They bought the land with money they saved up for to flee extermination in Europe.
Buying stolen land is not legitimate lol
That's not about blame, that's just about nationhood. A nation built on stolen land is always a settler-colony (looking at you Amerikkka)
The "persecution of Jews in that area for 1000s of years" in your link gives examples of Spanish antisemitism though. You're doing the thing where you assume all Muslims are Arabs. Also it lists Christians being persecuted alongside them, no sure how you interpret that.
Now as for racism, it's not like US racism where there's a clear dividing line between races with whiteness being the privileged racial class.
It's more like colorismo in Latin America, where the lightness of skin correlates with social, political, and economic privileges. There's a reason why the ruling class in Israel all have light skinned faces and Arabs, even Jewish ones, deal with racial discrimination. A dark skinned Jew will need to prove their Jewishness in ways a light skinned one won't.
However it does have a racial component similar to the US; free people of color were considered legally white if they had less than either one-eighth or one-quarter African ancestry, and in Israel you're considered legally Jewish if you have at least one-eighth Jewish ancestry. Also? Inter-"faith" marriage is illegal, again similar to laws against interracial marriage in the US. Interesting parallels.
Okay, here are two more links detailing their persecution in the Middle East.
https://i.imgur.com/Tc0zvjq.jpg
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-01-24/ty-article-magazine/like-father-like-son-the-ottoman-governor-who-tortured-the-jews-of-jerusalem/0000017f-f7cc-d044-adff-f7fd35c00000
Okay, that's more relevant. Though the Damascus affair seems to have been instigated by France and Turkey, then spread south later.
Ibn Farouk, on the other hand, is noted as an outlier and a tyrant who bought his way into power. That hardly means he reflects something common to the region. Also, notably, persecuted Christians and Muslims that pissed him off - just an asshole in general. Weirdly, I can't actually find anything about him outside of this article and its source The Museum of the Jewish People at Beit Hatfutsot. Strange.
There’s also this guy https://i.imgur.com/puycOKG.jpg who gave the Nazis widespread support throughout Palestine and even personally assisted in recruiting Muslims to the SS. There’s also this book https://imgur.io/gh1T0AV?r written by the leader of the PLO where he argues zionists wanted an extermination of their own people to make the world feel sorry for them.
Here’s another, the Hebron massacre in 1929 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Jew hate for the sake of Jew hate is very well documented in this area. Their own actions and words speak for themselves.
Are you unfamiliar with the Haavara Agreement? Zionist do actually intentionally heighten antisemitism around the world specifically so that Jews are forced to become settlers. It's a very obvious strategy they use, it's why all anti-Zionism is equated with antisemitism. It wasn't to 'make us sorry for them', though, that's definitely backwards; it's to make people hate Jews by smearing them with the crimes of Zionism and promoting antisemitism (they helped create Hamas, did you know that?) and forcing them to flee to the settler-colony.
Just another facet of Zionist racism. They push Jew hate to justify their own militarism and brutality and inherently fascistic ethnonationalism.
In order for there to ever be a multi-ethnic democratic state in the middle east, Zionism must be left in the dustbin of history.
I am quite familiar with the haavara agreement. It was an agreement that allowed Germany to rid itself of its “problem” and allowed Jews to flee to already established Jewish settlements in Palestine. That has absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. They wanted OUT of Germany. Not herded into a gas chamber…
And it parallels the modern practices of Zionism, by promoting antisemitism around the world and then welcoming Jews who flee antisemitism into the already established Jewish settlement in occupied Palestine. Nothing has changed.
I'm not saying Zionists did the holocaust, but they literally did work with Hitler to help rid Germany of Jews. That's verifiable fact. I don't think they wanted the holocaust to happen, but WWII sure was convenient for encouraging Jews to flee to occupied Palestine.
That’s a LOT of scheming for a piece of land the size of New Jersey. Even smaller had they agreed to the UN proposal and unified with Transjordan and let the Zionists deal with cultivating the negev desert.
The Zionists are motivated by fascistic blood-and-soil nationalism and mythology about the promised land, the fact that it's really not that much land and not that valuable is irrelevant. Why do you think they're willing to commit genocide over this shit?
Though Israel is very well suited for America to control the Middle East and North Africa and the Mediterranean. That, in addition to the apocalyptic fantasy from America's sizeable Armageddon cult, are why Israel is treated as the 51st state.
I don’t see that when reading the writings of most pioneering Zionists. Not saying there went some that thought like that, but the vast majority I’ve encountered while researching Zionism share roughly the same reasoning: tired of being hunted and having nowhere to run. Think about it, persecuted Christians have all of Europe and America to flee to, Muslims have all of the Middle East and parts of Africa to flee to, the Jews had nowhere to flee to. Frankly, being part of a group that is consistently hunted time and time again throughout history, being called parasites because they have no homeland, will do a number on one’s psychology. I’d wager that the vast majority of Zionists were not in fact fascists, but deeply scared people who saw safety in having a place to call their own.
Yeah, after they murdered all the natives and stole their land. Hmmmmmmm! Sounds familiar!
There's nothing magical about being Jewish that makes antisemitism inevitable. They aren't genetically predisposed to being persecuted or something.
This blood-and-soil concept that an ethnicity needs a "homeland" is both outdated and quite racist. In the modern age we should pursue multi-ethnic and multi-racial and multi-religious democracies, not apartheid ethnostates built on genocide and land theft and endless fucking war.
This is going nowhere. I'll end with this: Scared people are notoriously dangerous. I'm sure they were legitimately afraid of being persecuted, but fear certainly can motivate fascistic ideology and doesn't actually justify their ethnonationalism. What we see today, a genocidal ethnostate practicing apartheid and ethnic cleansing, is the inevitable result of all ethnonationalism. The only way this ever ends is if Israel becomes a democracy and allows Palestinians to vote, or if they kill and kill and kill until Israel is an island surrounded by a sea of irradiated glass. That's it.
Zionism is absolutely unsustainable and Hamas just proved it. Let's not keep the experiment going until it turns into WW3.