Specially when you take into account what Russia has done. They have a long history of erasing East European cultures (i.e. Russification), and genocide. So I do not trust them when it comes to Eastern European affairs, and neither do native people from those countries, most of support for Russia in those areas comes from Russian minorities (I wonder how they got there).

[–] h3doublehockeysticks@hexbear.net 33 points 1 year ago

Of course you do, that's my point

Your points real dumb then. Yanukovich was no more a Russian puppet than Poroshenko was an EU puppet. The fuck do you think a puppet government even is?

[–] Zuzak@hexbear.net 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Of course you do, that's my point.

Great argument.

They do, but the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

Of course they're not, and I don't consider them as such. They are, however, the enemy of my enemy. Ideally, once the US is dealt with, Putin can get the wall next.

They have a long history of erasing East European cultures (i.e. Russification), and genocide. So I do not trust them when it comes to Eastern European affairs, and neither do native people from those countries

The US has a much worse historical record with genociding native people, so maybe Russia should support some landback movements in the US. Afaik they never did anything to the Native Americans.

I'm not sure what genocide you're referring to in any case. But I'm sure you can dig up some skeletons in the closets of any two historical neighbors if you go far enough back. What's funny about your argument is that you seem to be suggesting that people thousands of miles away are better suited to govern a region, since they likely don't have a similar record.

(I wonder how they got there).

Are we just going to ignore the part where the USSR expanded Ukraine's borders to include the disputed regions?

[–] orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I’m not sure what genocide you’re referring to in any case.

Have fun:

[–] Zuzak@hexbear.net 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Famines are not genocides lol. Though I suppose you could make the case that the embargo on the USSR caused a lot of excess deaths. Famines were extremely common before the USSR took power because it was a pre-industrial society, the USSR ended that. Also, the USSR is a completely different government from the Russian Federation.

[–] orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Famines are not genocides lol. Though I suppose you could make the case that the embargo on the USSR caused a lot of excess deaths. Famines were extremely common before the USSR took power because it was a pre-industrial society, the USSR ended that. Also, the USSR is a completely different government from the Russian Federation.

How do you feel about the Irish Famine?

[–] Zuzak@hexbear.net 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The Irish Famine was a genocide, because it was intentional. I should've clarified I mean that famines can be genocides, but are not inherently genocidal.

I'll note that your own source says in the introduction:

While scholars are in consensus that the cause of the famine was man-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute

Likewise, the article on the Kazakh famine:

Some historians describe the famine as legally recognizable as a genocide perpetrated by the Soviet state, under the definition outlined by the United Nations; however, some argue otherwise.

And

The de-Cossackization is sometimes described as a genocide of the Cossacks, although this view is disputed, with some historians asserting that this label is an exaggeration.

The last one I didn't see any mention of genocide though it might be buried deeper in the article, it's pretty long.

[–] orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The Irish Famine was a genocide, because it was intentional. I should’ve clarified I mean that famines can be genocides, but are not inherently genocidal.

I’ll note that your own source says in the very first line:

While scholars are in consensus that the cause of the famine was man-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute

Here's a quote from the Irish Famine (same source: wikipedia)

Virtually all historians reject the claim that the British government's response to the famine constituted a genocide, their position is partially based on the fact that with regard to famine related deaths, there was a lack of intent to commit genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Genocide_question

So you have two options:

You either accept both as a genocide
Or you basically pick-and-choose based on whichever country was responsible for the genocide.

My guess is that you'll take the second option.

[–] Zuzak@hexbear.net 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Or I could... not base my views on history entirely off of Wikipedia articles?

[–] orizuru@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Or I could… not base my views on history entirely off of Wikipedia articles?

So... first you believe Wikipedia, now you don't, based on whichever articles suit your views?

[–] Zuzak@hexbear.net 36 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think you understand how this works. You cited Wikipedia asking me to accept it as a source. That means that you accept it as a source, and I may or may not accept it as a source. Given that Wikipedia says that your claims of genocide are disputed, you have to accept that. I don't have to accept Wikipedia as authoritative, because I never claimed it was, I'm just saying that if you accept it, then you have to accept that all your claims are disputed. That's just how citing sources works.

[–] CamaradeBoina@hexbear.net 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You debatebroed the debate bro with actual fact and logics, holy hell

(notice how they haven't responded after lol)

[–] Zuzak@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago

:::spoiler emojis

debatebro-r mission-accomplished-1 mission-accomplished-2 debatebro-l

[–] BurgerPunk@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago

Ipso facto absurdeum you have only two options now.

Checkmate tankie smuglord

[–] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/11/21/in-search-of-a-soviet-holocaust/