this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2023
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Shit I had hoped we could leave the nuclear stans over at reddit.
What’s wrong with nuclear?
Nothing in general. Well the build times are rediculous in Europe and planning right not to build nuclear soon is too late already for any agreed upon climate goal. But that's another matter...
The problem is the brain-washed nuclear cult on social media briganding everything. In the last year on Reddit you couldn't even post any report about any new opening of wind or solar power without it degenerating into always the same story: "bUt ReNeWaBlEs DoN't WoRk! StOrAgE DoEs'Nt ExIsT! tHeY aRe A sCaM tO bUrN mOrE FoSsIl FuElS! gErMaNy KiLlEd ThEir NuClEaR To BuRn MoRe CoAl BeCaUsE ThEy ArE InSanE!!"
Mentioning the fact that Germany in reality shut down reactors not even contributing 5% of their electricity production that were scheduled for shutdown for 30 years and in a state you would expect with that plan and already more than replaced by renewables got you donwvoted into oblivion every single time.
Reality is uncomfortable for the idealist. But ultimate any sustainable future MUST include nuclear and everything you sarcastically dismissed with that childish spongebob typing is just the reality of our world society. You may as well get upset about how we didn't leave the "reality stans," back on reddit.
In fact, I should turn this back on you, I'm upset about the coal-stans that apparently migrated over here from reddit. If there is any world where you want to claim to be "green," coal CANNOT be any part of the conversation. If it is, you have failed and don't' get to discuss environmentalism anymore.
Except nobody is advocating coal. So what do you want to turn back on him exactly?
Just because you developed a hate boner for anyone who's not on your nuclear train doesn't mean they're pro coal. If you need to put words in others people's mouths to confirm yourself... you're wrong.
With your reaction you just confirmed what he described.
If you aren't pro-nuclear you are pro-coal, thats the reality. No one is replacing nuclear reactors with anything but coal. The development of wind and solar generation is going to happen regardless, but for every nuclear plant that Germany shut down, they opened, or re-opened a coal plant.
Saying "that's the reality" doesn't make it a reality. You can repeat it as often as you want, it makes you look like a self absorbed jerk - because it's simply not true. Just because it's a nice narrative to push for you not every opponent to nuclear energy is a proponent to coal. Quite the contrary I'd figure.
The single last coal plant started operation in 2020, and none has been "re-opened". Some are kept in prolonged reserve mode until 2024 (half a year longer than originally planned), IF the Alarmstufe Gas stays in effect.
Maybe try with some verifiable facts and stop lying.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/08/germany-reactivate-coal-power-plants-russia-curbs-gas-flow I guess "reactivating coal power plants" means something different in the original German, an must be semantically different then "re-opened." Also note that natural gas is still a fossil fuel that has the dubious distinction of being "better" then coal, but infinitely worse then Nuclear.
Now if you are against nuclear energy, it means you have to have a replacement in mind and all replacements for Nuclear Power Plants are fossil fuel based. There isn't another option. Wind/Solar are great, there is no one accusing you of being against renewables. But renewables are NOT replacements for Nuclear or Fossil Fuel based power. So there is your choice. Pro-Nuclear or Pro-Fossil fuel.
No already shut down plant has been restarted into operation. Only the grace period until the final shut down has been extended for half a year - only for plants which were scheduled to shut down this year (but haven't been shut down yet), and only under the condition of the gas emergency status.
So I upgraded from "pro coal" to "pro fossil fuel" now? Yay. Maybe if we continue this discussion we can also get rid of that narrative.
I mean, in theory, coal burning could be made clean. Capture the carbon out of the exhaust, collect it into a solid block, bury it, done. Problem is the power plants will only pretend to do this, and not actually do it.
Well if you don't support nuclear because its "too complex," you de facto support coal, which will inevitably turn into "degrowth" as most of the world can't support agriculture anymore, and so you will get to nod your head as 100's of millions are "de-growthed" into starvation.
Why would anyone who's against nuclear automatically be pro coal? It's not like the only options available to us are nuclear and coal.
That is the truth. Nuclear competes with fossil fuels, not wind or solar.
Living up to your name.
Then why are you here? Your horrid omnicidal wish will be, by your own admission, inevitably granted. You have nothing to worry about.
If you want degrowth, you want to see billions dead, because that is what degrowth means.
Degrowth means job loss. Job loss means no income. No income means no food. No food means starvation.
And how, exactly, do you expect to institute this proposal over the objections of the rich? Every previous attempt to do something like this, like the communist revolutions in Russia and China, ended up killing millions of people and accomplishing nothing of virtue, because the rich retained power and forcibly twisted the new post-revolution economy into something even worse than capitalism.
So, you propose that I live in a state of perpetual nausea from eating nothing but horrid-tasting, questionably-nutritious, plant-based “food” instead of actual food, and then die in the apocalypse anyway? No thanks. Civilization is done for, living in it is miserable enough already, and I am not interested in sacrificing what few shreds of happiness remain in order to accomplish basically nothing.
The only way to avert the coming disaster is decisive, mandatory action from the top of society on down, and that obviously isn't going to happen, so the best I can realistically hope for is to live it up and be dead before it gets really ugly.
Not as much as you could. You still live in shelter, use electricity, exhale carbon, eat carbon-absorbing plants, and excrete methane. Humanity's very existence is driving global warming. There is no escape.
None of these things are going to happen. The rich will string you up by the toenails before they let you derail their gravy train, and your fellow proles will cheer as they do it. That's why we're doomed: powerful people are enforcing our doom, and everyone else worships them.
Degrowth is a dangerous ideology. For those living in rich countries, degrowth might just mean austerity, for those living in middle and lower income countries, degrowth is going to mean destitution and certain death for x percentage of the population.
Poor track record with safety (not talking about the big issues such as meltdowns, but smaller issues such as minor leaks, and workplace incidents). Nobody's interested in building them unless they've got profit guarantees and subsidies from the government. Nobody's interested in insuring them in full (unless it's the government). Nobody's interested in the eventual decommissioning process, which can take a century, and again, still costs. Renewables will be up and running, and profitable, long before nuclear is constructed.
Speaking about the safety record here's what final storage looks like in Germany. That's another eight billion Euros of cleanup costs right there. I'm not usually that crass but whoever ok'd fucking dumping fucking nuclear waste in a fucking salt mine (unsurprisingly, yes, there's water incursions) deserves to be shot.
In a nutshell the sentiment in Germany is that the only people that can be trusted to not play it fast and loose with nuclear safety are the Greens, and the Greens rather don't want to deal with it either so we have a decision.
Surely the next time they want to get rid of waste they'll do better! Pinkie promise!
What's your proposed solution for the energy storage problem?
If you see the environment as just another way to profit, and you assume that we can't save the environment because it costs too much, you are just another shitty fossil fuel executive, but worse because at least the fossil fuel executives get paid for their short-term ideas, you are just supporting them and thereby standing by as hundreds of millions of people are condemned to death, hopefully including yourself, for literally nothing.
So, you're going to spend, billions, to build a nuclear powerplant, that will decarbonise at a slower rate, never turn a profit, be an economic sinkhole megaproject, or, you could just build a solar panel or wind turbine in like, a year, where it'll be functional and working. Profits allow you to reinvest into more projects. Losses, mean you're putting endless amounts of money into less.
Again if you are worried about "turning a profit" you don't give a fuck about the environment and need to leave.
If you're constantly pouring money into a loss-making industry, it means you're not efficiently managing your resources to build more projects. Profits from renewables can be reinvested before a single plant can't be constructed. And that nuclear plant, will never make enough profit to build another.
What the fuck is the point of "making a profit?" The world is burning because of profits. If all fossil fuel plants were taxed at 1,000,000 Million per ton of carbon emissions would you support nuclear then?
The point of making a profit, is so that you can re-invest and allow private industries into the market.
If I made you a loaf of bread, which took 15 mins, and you could sell it for $2 profit. You would be able to sell more pieces of bread correct?
If another person made you a loaf of bread, which took three days to complete, and you make a loss of $10 with each one sold, how many more pieces of bread are you willing to sell?
One feeds your population, the other has to be bailed out by the government, and everyone loses money and investment and time.
This is why China prioritises renewables, renewables are considered superior to nuclear when decarbonising the grid, and the best case scenario for nuclear, according to scientists in academia (as opposed to pro-nuke Youtube videos), requires nuclear to be a minor player in a majority renewables grid (and also be 25% cheaper). Unfortunately making nuclear cheaper, is not ideal.
The pro-nuke argument is literally funded by the mining lobby and the fossil fuels industry. Which is why most of their resources are from lobby groups, YouTube videos, public books, and TED talks... Because they know it's going to be ineffective, and they only need to convince the public. Much like how the whole hydrogen-powered cars narrative is going, or environmentally friendly fuels. It's an expensive distraction.
See the RAB that the UK has for the HPC nuke plant build. Companies are allowed to make a profit even before the powerplant is completed. The government will handle insurance, and decommissioning. Which, happens over a century, at taxpayers expense, and it produces no energy. There's also the storage of radioactive material. All of this, uses money and resources that could otherwise be used for constructing renewables (and the fossil fuels industry loves this plan, because every moneypit nuke plant that is constructed, less renewables are built, and fossils gets to remain in the game because they then become only just one of the underperformers, rather than all), decarbonising the grid (faster, see study), and on top of that, everybody makes money.
But don't worry, renewables are also cheaper and more profitable than fossils in most applications as well, so they'll lose out on future energy projects, besides, like in Germany's case, being used as a backup.
Let me pose you another question. Why do you think, the British Conservatives have invested in making HPC happen (finally agreeing to the demand to allow investing companies to turn a profit even before any energy is produced)? Why have conservatives in South Korea planned to restart a new nuclear industry despite accusations of corruption? Why is it the conservatives in Australia love the idea of nuclear? Is it because they can do the good old-fashioned trope of using the state to make their private company chums some money? Or is it because it's for the goodness of their hearts, and concern for their citizens, while they dismantle the NHS and privatise it, for example?
Ban private industries from the energy market, recognize that the massive externalities from fossil fuels are a net negative for the entire planet. Fine and Jail the former owners for complacency and wanton disregard for human life. Immediately build nuclear plants that are designed to create stable energy for the populace and get over the idea that profit is the purpose of a power grid.
So, you're going to build a powerplant, that people don't want to fund, that governments are reluctant to build? You'll need to create a government agency responsible for the design and planning, another responsible for training new powerplant workers, another one for the decommissioning process, and another for insurance, and another as a safety watchdog, which might come online in a decade if you're lucky, or closer to two decades if you're not, only for it to not be as effective as renewables, be a constant drain on taxpayers, not be entirely reliable, and be more expensive as an energy source than renewables. Sure, good luck with that plan. I wish you well garnering political and academic support with that. In the meantime, universities, companies, and governments will generally avoid it like the plague. Unless or course, there's a nuclear industry that already exists and needs to be subsidised, or a military nuclear requirement to keep the talent and designs ongoing.
You're deliberately going to build nuclear, ignore studies telling you that renewables decarbonise faster. Because you want to decarbonise. Only for your personal opinions, backed by the fossils and mining industry? You're going to give the fossil industry a lot of money over the first 10 years of absolutely nothing happening.
I will add, the election promises the conservative Swedes have made seem to have disappeared. How convenient.
It scares people into making them plan and pay for everything up front. If you did the same with literally any other fuel source it wouldn't even get built. Coal would be DoA if they had the same limits on radioactive emissions as a nuclear plant.
But that's the thing with nuclear. The upfront costs are massive, and literally irrecoverable. Can you name a single nuclear powerplant that has broken even? I can't. Not unless, it's one that the government has built and then handed over to private industry, for example. Reducing safety from nuclear powerplants is not viable long term. And that's the only way to get them commercially viable.
It's not about reducing safety, it's about reducing regulations that are about the appearance of safety, it's about not imposing decommissioning costs as part of construction.
The US Navy has been able to consistently and safely build and run reactors for 50 years. It's basically just fear preventing that knowledge and experience from being used in the commercial sector.
The US Navy isn't concerned about making their fleets commercially viable. Taxpayers expect to subsidise defence, and for the US, this is done at vast cost. They don't expect to constantly be funding an expensive, loss-making powerplant. Not when alternatives are cheaper and more effective.