“People think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldn’t be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we haven’t lost a single American in this war,” McConnell said. “Most of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So it’s actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.”

cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/4085063

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[–] EchoesInOverdrive@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (3 children)

What exactly is a tankie? I wanted to upvote this post when I saw its content, but I found the tag from the OP about the "quiet part" to be off-putting as though this quote from McConnell is a negative thing. I don't like or think McConnell is a good person, but to me this quote reads as a way to sell continued support for Ukraine to the crazier parts of our government. Like a "oh, you don't want to spend money on Ukraine because it's the right thing to do? Well here, how about because it's making money for Americans." Sure, maybe not the reason I support funding and arming Ukraine, but if it convinces people who aren't already in support, then I'm for it. If anything, it seems shrewd.

I've seen a lot of posts/comments on Lemmy about tankies recently and I'm confused about what that means. Haven't quite been able to determine from context since the context seems different depending on the post. Sorry if it's a dumb question.

[–] diffuselight@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

A subsection of people who are so far right they ended up on the left again, strongly aroused by military (tanks) symbols, manliness and strength while simultaneously being convinced that Russia is the good guys and therefore whatever they do must be good because US is bad.

There’s a few varieties here. Roger Waters and Noam Chomsky for example who basically are the US is bad so anything is the opposite of what US says (down to denying russian genocide in syria because, well, they are against the US).

There’s the cosplay section of milbloggers and western cosplay russian twitter specialists who usually are Canadian or German or Alabama white males in their basement cosplaying to be in Ukraine fighting for Russia

And of course plenty of russian males who actually buy the narratives.

Most of them have one thing in common - they just can’t handle reality and therefore escape into increasingly insane contortion.. basically Republicans meet Covid again.

[–] EchoesInOverdrive@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Thanks! Appreciate the in depth response

[–] oce@jlai.lu 1 points 1 year ago

I think this Wikipedia quote is more informational

The term "tankie" was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to crush the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring uprising, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions.[7][8]

The term is also used to describe people who endorse, defend, or deny the crimes committed by communist leaders such as Vladimir Lenin,[9][10] Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, and Kim il-Sung. In modern times, the term is used across the political spectrum to describe those who have a bias in favor of illiberal or authoritarian states with a socialist legacy or a nominally left-wing government, such as the Republic of Belarus, People's Republic of China, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the Republic of Nicaragua, the Russian Federation, the Republic of Serbia, the Syrian Arab Republic, and the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. Additionally, tankies have a tendency to support non-socialist states with no socialist legacy if they are opposed to the United States and the Western world in general, regardless of their ideology,[4][11] such as the Islamic Republic of Iran. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

[+] bitsplease@lemmy.ml -7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Basically it means someone who supports Russia - usually Communists (which is fine) who - for some reason think Russia is still communist (which is dumb)

[–] honeynut@lemm.ee 21 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Literally no communist thinks Russia is still communist

[–] bitsplease@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There seems to be a startling overlap on lemmy between Communists and Russia supporters. Can't say I've ever seen a comment either from hexbear or lemmy grad in favor of Ukraine over Russia.

If it's not because they think Russia is on the side of communism, then what the hell is going on in their heads?

[–] honeynut@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Support as in they enjoy the prospect of Russia winning? That they like Putin and want him to conquer Ukraine?

They mostly consider this war to be a proxy war between Russia and United States + its wards in the EU who wish to needlessly prolong the war at the cost of Ukranian lives in order to deplete the Russian economy and military. Within this group, you can further break them down into: those who disagree with the invasion and those who believe it is justified.

For the latter, they would point to the secession crisis in the Donbass after the Maidan and subsequent intentional blockading of fresh water to Crimea as justification for intervention, with the prospects of Ukraine joining NATO being the trigger.

For the group that disavows the invasion, you need to understand that it is difficult for communists to cheerleader their own state pumping weapons into a country whose government heralds bold-faced Nazis as righteous warriors of freedom. This does not necessarily mean they believe that Putin is genuinely concerned about Nazis since the Wagner PMC itself has a notorious far right and neo-Nazi presence.

Simply not supporting the Ukrainian state nor NATO does not mean supporting Russia. On the other hand, those who do support Russia aren't always necessarily communists, but will flock to spaces that have that overlap in interests.

[–] bitsplease@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Support as in they enjoy the prospect of Russia winning? That they like Putin and want him to conquer Ukraine?

I mean, yes - as a matter of fact. Just look in this thread at the numerous comments from those two instances of users saying that Ukraine should have just surrendered, and that it's their fault for not agreeing to Putin's "peace" proposal.

You're definitely not going to hear me argue in favor of NATO's actions, but none of that (with the exception of Ukraine joining NATO) excuses an invasion of Ukraine - and regarding Ukraine joining NATO - they're a sovereign state, it's not Russias right to invade their neighbors because they don't like Ukraines international policy. If the US decided to invade Mexico because they were thinking about signing a mutual defense agreement with China, you can bet your ass I'd be out in the street protesting the war.

And if we're going to say that a country deserves to be ravaged because a small portion of their population espouses white supremacist policies, then I guess the U.S., Italy, Germany, Russia itself, and a whole shitload others should start getting shelled as well. Unfortunately, for very complex reasons, a huge chunk of the world has a neonazi problem right now, using it as an excuse for an invasion is absolute bull shit.

Simply not supporting the Ukrainian state nor NATO does not mean supporting Russia

Except that it does. Russia invaded Ukraine - and so far they haven't given a single signal that they'd be willing to any peace agreement that leaves Ukraine with it's original borders. Ultimately if Ukraine loses, it'll mean that it will be annexed. It would be a very different situation if Russia was offering a real peace (one that doesn't involve Ukraine giving up it's own territory) and Ukraine was being obstinate, but there is no realistic pacifist position to be taken here

[–] honeynut@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

I'm not debating. The original conversation was that you said communists supported Russia because they think it's communist, and I clarified that they really don't.

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[–] jackalope@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is not true. I've talked with people in person at socialist organizations that were claiming that putin was secretly Marxist at the beginning of the invasion. There def are campists who will double down on nonsense.

[–] honeynut@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What organization?

[–] jackalope@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

A local marxist-leninist org I know through activist circles. They aren't big or influential and I wouldn't take them to be representative of most self identified socialist political orgs in America. They're fringe.