One of the key aspects of Marxism isn’t just about state control or central planning, it’s about the active involvement of the working class in managing production and society. If a state is controlled by a small elite, even if it calls itself socialist, it risks becoming a form of state capitalism rather than true worker control.

This isn’t about rigid, dogmatic labels which I can't help but notice in your assumptions of me. What is interesting is understanding material conditions and power structures. Discussing any state, does it give the workers control or whether it serves a centralized elite.

I’m not claiming that any state is "false" without evidence. It's an examination of how power operates in those states and whether it matches the idea of socialism where workers are in control. Doesn't Marxist analysis require questioning these things, not simply accepting a label?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 weeks ago (14 children)

I think you're stuck on this idea of AES being controlled by an "elite," without doing actual class analysis. It isn't about being "called Socialist," it's about the proletariat being in power. State level planners are not distinct classes. We can see that, in the USSR, for example, the economy was democratized and the Working Class gained massive improvements in material conditions. This shows quite clearly that the Proletariat was indeed in power.

Marxism does require questioning. The problem you're running into is dismissing the opinions of a supermajority of Marxists worldwide with very little in the way of evidence, and you're making an error in class analysis. It isn't about accepting a label, it's the knowledge that social practice increases knowledge, and that therefore requires an understanding that practicing Marxists, whom overwhelmingly hold to lines such as Marxism-Leninism, likely know more about Marxism than non-practicing individuals on the internet.

[–] tiredturtle@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 weeks ago (13 children)

Marx differentiates between workers directly managing production and a state acting as their proxy. Material improvements alone don't prove proletarian control, as state capitalism can achieve similar outcomes while concentrating power in a minority.

Marxism prioritizes dialectical analysis over majority opinion. Experience matters, and it must be tested against material conditions and theory. The opinions of the majority cannot substitute for class analysis. Even Lenin argued that revolutionary theory develops.

[–] CutieBootieTootie@hexbear.net 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Marx differentiates between workers directly managing production and a state acting as their proxy. Material improvements alone don't prove proletarian control

Socialism is not the electrification of Russia

as state capitalism can achieve similar outcomes while concentrating power in a minority.

Yeah, clearly, but you haven't proven it at all. The revolutionary conditions of the PRC have made it so that regular working people can engage with their government in ways impossible in the liberal world, I know from my own experience of being there and from studies like this one from famously CCP Elite backed Harvard which shows that the great masses of people are satisfied in their governance and feel engaged.

You can imply and say all day without evidence that the world's largest socialist country is purely in the hands of a ruling elite which comprises it's own economic class separate from the working class people it represents, but it doesn't make it true.

[–] tiredturtle@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Socialism is more than material development. Marx and Lenin argued it requires the working class to democratically control production. Electrification or industrial progress is a tool, not proof of socialism.

High satisfaction with governance doesn’t prove proletarian rule. Lenin noted that oppressed classes can feel represented under non-socialist regimes. The Harvard study shows approval but doesn’t demonstrate that the PRC is run by and for workers.

Socialism requires more than material gains or approval ratings. Workers would collectively control production and the state to validate proletarian power.

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