this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2024
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OK, what else do you suggest? Not voting? That just speeds the process up. Voting for the small but much better option? In a FPTP voting system (like the American one that I assume you're talking about), the spoiler effect means that's as good as not voting.
This is my issue with the leftist community in general, and especially the ml group. Because of idealism, they seem to ask for something that doesn't exist and not accept anything else.
I think you're missing several things. First, if the phenomenon is accurate, and it is, then the burden is on you to figure out how to stop getting played. Don't ask other people to solve your problems. Recognize your problems, and then work to solve them directly.
Second, the spoiler effect doesn't exist unless you're in a swing state. But how many Americans were told that they have to vote for Harris or they're supporting Trump, when in fact their state was nowhere close to 50/50 so realistically they could have voted for anyone?
Third, there is no single leftist community. There are many different leftist communities that overlap and agree on various points. Also, you're suggesting that leftists are idealist, but that's not the truth. We all recognize the current situation, and we're trying to make a better one, but you're not. In other words, your cynicism has caused you to throw in the towel, and to accept the current reality as permanent, unchangeable, it sucks but there's nothing you can do, and that's certainly true if you believe it.
Sorry, but how the fuck did you get to that opinion? Sharing knowledge and ideas is how humanity thrives, but unless I'm misunderstanding you you're saying that we should each individually find a solution to the problem we are all in together.
The spoiler effect will always exist to some extent in any FPTP system. Sure, it won't make nearly as much difference in a one sided state as it will in a swing state, but the effect still exists, and makes it much harder for a better party to gain traction while not losing a lot of ground in the mean time.
The people that didn't believe this and so didn't vote are probably the reason that Trump won the popular vote, and that the republicans have a majority in the senate and the house.
Acting like "voting for the lesser evil is evil and therefore unacceptable" seems pretty idealist to me. I'm well aware that most people here are aware of how shit the world is, and are doing their part to improve it, which is something I appreciate and want to support. It's just that from what I can tell, the recent US election was the wrong place for idealism.
Sorry, mate, but don't assume. I'm not american, I'm kiwi. And since we don't have a completely shit voting system, I always vote as a huge idealist and never vote for one of the big two, because in MMP that's not a wasted vote.
No. I've just accepted that, at least for this cycle of US elections, the better approach would be playing defensive. It's not that the current reality is unchangeable, it's that positive change will be very slow.
This video goes into why some radical leftists think that voting doesn't really matter, or could even be considered harmful.
As good as that video is, he ignores the strength elections have as damage control. Yes, large positive change needs the sort of efforts he's describing, but ignoring voting means a bad government will have far more opportunity to undo progress.
Really, the biggest takeaway from that video is that there are more tools than simply voting and protesting, which I don't think anyone is disagreeing with.
I don't think you got the main point of the video. Not only "large" change needs these efforts. Any progressive change does. As soon as there is no pressure by mass movements, politicians will drift to strengthen their power, which means moving to the right.
So the only way to keep and maintain a progressive government is to teleport from where we are now to the desired outcome? Is that the argument of the video?
If so, that seems not currently feasible.
Maybe you should watch it, then you don't have to ask such an ignorant question.
Sounds like you aren't clear on what that video is suggesting either. Why should I spend time to watch a video that no one seems to have understood?
I'm quite clear: electoral politics is merely a distraction for left/progressive forces. Rather, you should organize with your fellow exploited siblings and built opposing power structures from the bottom up.
He demands the opposite than wishful thinking, or "teleporting".
Ok, so why not vote for the lesser evil then? It would increase the amount of time we have to organize without fascists cracking down on us.
The fascists have already been cracking down on people trying to organize.
Yes! Why not vote for the lesser evil to prevent harsher crackdowns than you would otherwise get?
Because it doesn't prevent anything.
At the end, yes, both outcomes are the same unless organization is successful. Why make organizing any harder than it needs to be?
I think I have a rock that keeps tigers away to sell you
So your solution is defeatism?
A bold strategy, let's see how it pays off. /s
Was supporting genocide "damage control?"
Supporting the lesser evil is damage control. Yes, Harris is far from great, but Trump is far worse.
Here's the question I asked.
That's the question I answered.
Which would you rather support?
Pick one or give an alternative and a good reason that it will have some effect.
The lesser evil in this situation is genocide without all the other shit, and supporting that is therefore damage control
Sorry, I thought I made it clear. What Biden did when he supported genocide for you is not "damage control" even though you love him for it.
A. Please tell me exactly where I said Biden was anything more than a mildly less shit alternative to Trump. And please tell me where I was saying support the genocide, rather than support one of the people who supports the genocide.
B. I have not been talking about what Biden should have done. I have only been talking about what voters should have done.
This election should have taught you that you can't control voters beyond giving them a reason to vote for you. Not being the other guy is not a good enough reason.
Third parties are electable when they can do this better than the two major parties, and people stop buying into the propaganda you are spreading. They are legitimized when you vote for them. They are a threat to the major parties that can only be realized if you vote for them.
Except, not you, because you're not an American voter, so why are you here again?
When a non-evil person reaches the conclusion that a government is unavoidably committing genocide, there next thought is "how can we bring about the end of this government?", not "how can I maintain the good times for me personally?". But Democrats are callous psychopaths.
Also, it's already fascism you ghoul.
I suggest that the party take the fucking hint and move to the left. But that's not an option you will consider.
That's absolutely an option I would consider, but it's not an option that 99% of people can actually act on.
Well, shouting at the electorate to shut up and love genocide because it's the "lesser" evil didn't work.