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‘They will vote against Harris’: Arab Americans in Michigan desert Democrats over Gaza
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2024
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This is question-begging a number of critical elements, e.g. that the "rafts" cannot be influenced by "passenger" input, and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.
We can do it too:
You're in a runaway train accelerating toward a cliff and the break only really stops acceleration, it doesn't decelerate. You can sit in the engine room and hold down the break, and you'll live longer, but you aren't changing the fundamental dynamic of the situation, which ends in your eventual death. Conversely, you can jump off the train, surely injuring yourself, possibly crippling yourself, maybe even killing yourself, but it's the only potential way to change the dynamic of being doomed to fall off the cliff.
Does this prove anything? No, it's just a model of how some people think of the problem, not an argument. It would be really obnoxious and disingenuous to present it as an argument.
Maybe we should see if there’s any point of agreement, one step at a time.
Do you agree that either the Dem or Rep nominee will be the next president?
When I said:
This was me saying "It frames things as though losing the election means that all is lost and there won't be future elections."
As I'm pretty sure I explained to you an hour ago in another thread, I think it's an acceptable loss for the Democrats to lose an election to put pressure on them to change or else to establish that they are more loyal to the US project of Israel than they are to trying to win elections or do what voters want or anything like that.
I don't proactively want Trump to win, but I find it totally acceptable since what sets him apart from other Republicans is not that he is especially fascist in the substance of what he is likely to do. It might actually be possible to browbeat me if we had a Tom "throne of Chinese skulls" Cotton or someone as the nominee, he actually represents something that could be totalizing to me, but Trump is just kind of a deranged grifter and Vance is a more even-keel grifter.
So to save us both time, no, I don't think we agree on any points. I wasn't commenting toward that end, I merely wanted to say that the comic is unhelpful.
When you know how FPTP voting works but don’t want to admit what it means ^
Did you even read what I said? I directly acknowledged that the logical implication of my strategy is that Trump is more likely to win the upcoming election because I'm interested in how subsequent elections will be impacted. The calculus of "Always vote for the nearest viable candidate" is liberal dogma, yes, but it's not the only strategy and I find it to be a bad long-term strategy, because it just incentivizes an accelerating rightward drift from the "left" candidate, leaving you with two right candidates.
Despite needing to re-explain myself, I took what you said at face value and not as just being condescending wank, and now I guess I have egg on my face for my trouble.
False dichotomy and incorrect question. It doesn't matter who wins the next presidency. the general outcomes will be the same.
will both candidates break strikes when convenient to their corporate overlords? yes. will both candidates continue to drain our economy by not reforming health care/holding corporations accountable? yes. (as demonstrated by harris' unwillingness to commit to keeping khan) will both candidates continue to support israel wholeheartedly? yes.
the only different is the speed of the decline. frankly I'm done emotionally suffering because the national democrats are shit people. you're welcome to your positions and beliefs I just have no interest in supporting them when all they do is cause more harm to my communities. I also live in a blue bastion, harris' will win here regardless of my actions and my local government will more or less prevent the worst of trumps nonsense for my community.
A dichotomy, yes. A false one? No. I personally guarantee the next president will be either the Dem or Rep nominee.
Save this post and come back after the election. If you believe differently, I will give you very good odds on a bet.
The rest of your comment is common “muh both sides” dog shit.
yawn absolutely false. You have other options. you're just too afraid to exercise them. That's a you issue, you are willing to put up with harris/biden committing genocide and breaking strikes because you're scared of trump. I'm not. and yes, I'm aware of the mathematics behind FTFP. sadly fortunately they dont apply in my state.
You're controlled by fear. I'm not. My state is well insulated from trump and SCOTUS. If democrats and harris want to win they need to enforce the leahy act at a minimum. If harris wants to be the law and order candidate then she needs to move on these issues. she won't sadly but thats a her problem, not a me problem.
You also clearly dont understand 'both sides' critique. there are clear differences between the candidates. harris is clearly superior. she just isn't superior enough to overlook committing genocide and breaking strikes. for you she clearly is. that is a you issue.
Saving this comment for later to come back and say I told you so after either the Dem or Rep nominee wins the presidency.
I mean thats a you goal. I have no issue with harris winning she just wont get my support until she commits to enforcing leahy or keeping kahn. Which the biden/harris admin blinked yesterday on israel. Give it a few more days maybe send your own letter in support of arms embargo to your reps and help get them to do the right thing eh?
Do you agree that theres no excuse possible for aiding in a far right wing genocide?
Are you completely ignorant that there is a centrist genocide being carried out right now, seemingly with your quiet and obedient complicity?
No.
Given the restraints (either Dem or Rep will win) the logical thing to do is harm reduction. That is, unless you believe Trump will be better in this regard in which case I don’t think we’ll agree on much.
Now answer mine.
I dont beleive Harris giving Israel a free hand and all the weapons they need to exterminate and starve vs trump giving Israel a similar free hand is a meaningful distinction. Neither do ethnic Arab voters in swing states.
Its inevitable that AIPAC bribes will never change.. Why would they? They will be funding every American election going forward on both sides of the aisle, especially when they are using our own foriegn aid money to bribe us with. This guarantees that the future of American politics will be hand picked candidates from AIPAC, always with truly awful vs slightly less awful, but with everyone supporting whatever Israel wants.
I say NO to that. You should too. Your "harm reduction" is a manipulation to get you to vote for genocide and has been set up by the Israelis to continue their control-by-bribery of America, forever.
You need to take yourself off that crazy train. No one can do it for you. Can you at least ponder it?
I’m not getting an answer am I?
The answer was implicit in what I answered with. You arent considering the greater context.
The meaninglessly short sighted answer is yes, either a dem puppet of Israel will win, or a Repub puppet of Israel will win in this election. And the next election, and all the ones after that.
You and David seem to have a little in common.
We're on to adhoms huh, thats telling.
Nah just “puppet of Israel” reminded me a lot of that article.
Really similar, right? “Both parties are in Israel’s pocket”, “we should totally vote third party”. Really interesting.