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Why do we glorify horrible people from the distant past? (sh.itjust.works)

submitted 3 months ago by Konis@sh.itjust.works to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

122 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and many more...

These people had beliefs and worldviews that were so horribly, by today's standards, that calling them fascist would be huge understatement. And they followed through by committing a lot of evil.

Aren't we basically glorifying the Hitlers of centuries past?

I know, historians always say that one should not judge historical figures by contemporary moral standards. But there's a difference between objectively studying history and actually glorifying these figures.

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[–] Tenniswaffles@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

So the ends justify the means? Inflicting untold suffering on one group of people is fine if it benefits another one?

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

This is literally ancient history.

[–] Tenniswaffles@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yes, and? Have you not gotten to the part in your schooling where you look at history to see what can be learnt from it?

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Ignoring the insult, we're talking about Medieval times. They were famously awful to live in for everyone. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of readers won't think I'm suggesting anything about that period should be replicated in the modern day, unless I explicitly say that.

To be totally clear, I don't want to bring the Mongol empire back in 2024.

[–] Tenniswaffles@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You're missing the point entirely. The person I was originally responding too was saying that evan though awful things were done to people it's fine, or justifiable because "millions" benefited from them. If you don't understand how something like that at its base level can be applicable to modern times, that's a you issue.

It's not the specific actions taken or the setting/environment, but the attitude of the ends justifying the means if there's a net positive.

[–] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

No leader in that period is a good example of the ends justifying the means, all being self-serving feudal lords, but if that's the lesson you draw, I actually do agree with the concept. That's how every military action is justified, unless you're a pacifist.

I chimed in because OP was replying to support what I said, so I figured it was all the same discussion. I suppose I wouldn't go as far as saying you can't judge Genghis Khan, but I would say it's not very useful to use modern standards when that basically makes any historical figure dead by 1950 a bastard one way or the other.

[–] emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

All you can do is try to find out the truth, report it, and let people reach their own conclusions.

[–] Tenniswaffles@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I bet you think you're taking some sort high road to the effect of "oh I just state the facts, I'm not telling anyone what to think," while conveniently ignoring the part where the way that you report these facts, or which ones you leave out can very much influence the conclusions people reach.

You stated that Alexander killed many people, but also his actions benefitted millions of people. These two things put together in the way that you did will lead an uninformed person to he conclusion that it's fine that he killed people because it benefited many others. And maybe that could be true in some contexts, but you completely failed to mention the fact that he didn't just kill a bunch of people, he executed defeated peoples and sold a whole bunch of people into slavery, which would naturally influence the conclusions a person could come to.

[–] emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Any narrative will be biased, both in what it says and what it leaves out. But historians have to at least try to be impartial. I'm not a professional historian, so I can have whatever opinion I want.

You stated that Alexander killed many people

Chinggis Khan, not Alexander.

[–] Tenniswaffles@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 months ago

Oops, got my wires crossed with who I was talking about. But my point still stands.

You can have any opinion that you want, I haven't said that you couldn't. I was disagreeing with your opinion and expressing my own, you wombat. That's how discussion works.