One of the two is going to win in November and dictate future foreign policy. There are two outcomes, that's literally an actual dichotomy. Your actions regarding the election (personal voting strategy as well as comments that sway the personal voting strategies of others) ultimately support one of those two outcomes. If you get enough people to abstain in protest against Democratic foreign policy, you are increasing the probability of getting Republican foreign policy.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

One of the two is going to win in November and dictate future foreign policy. There are two outcomes, that's literally an actual dichotomy

Sure, if you willfully ignore all of politics except for the elections themselves as if it's a fucking football match.

Useful idiots like you settling for "not as awful as the other ones" and browbeating others into doing the same is how things got this awful.

When "less awful than literal fascists" is all voters demand and rich donors demand that they're somewhat awful out of greed, the Dem leadership doesn't have any incentive to be good and plenty of incentive to be awful.

This, in combination of your arrogant and condescending "you're either with us 100% or you're with the fascists 100%" attitude is EXACTLY the kind of thing that alienates tens of millions of people by making them feel like everything is going to be awful no matter what, so they don't vote.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't vote. I'm not even saying that it's not an awful idea to not vote. I'm just saying that it's not as simple as you insist it is and that we should be able to demand that the politicians we vote for (and I've voted in every election since I was first allowed to 23 years ago) at the VERY least don't commit unspeakable atrocities in our names.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

And what is your alternative? That a majority of Americans spontaneously organize and rise up outside of the purview of elections? That they spontaneously organize and vote third party?

"Useful idiots", look in the mirror champ. There are plenty of good times to levy well-deserved criticisms at the not-literally-fascists party. Months before a close election between them and the literally-fascists party is not one of them. It's probably the worst time in fact, and only serves, whatever your moral reasoning is, to increase the probability of a literally-fascists party win. You've unwittingly volunteered as a stooge in the troll army helping the right. Congrats, you played yourself.

You're strawmanning ultimatums that no one's saying. All we're saying is that, functionally, high turnout for Democrats is the best outcome leftists get from the election. Republicans are worse for leftists than Democrats, across the board, full stop. Republicans are worse for the genocide you're talking about, full stop.

Muddying the water about the failings of democratic leadership are entirely counterproductive in securing an administration that's better for the left than the alternative. Big tenting with the neo-libs is how things haven't gotten more awful than they are.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago

There are plenty of good times to levy well-deserved criticisms at the not-literally-fascists party. Months before a close election between them and the literally-fascists party is not one of them

Fun fact: I DO in fact levy well-deserved criticisms at them at all times when warranted, but neither they nor any of the apparatchiks seem to care when it's not close to an election.

It's probably the worst time

Not if you want anyone to listen. Between election cycles, nobody gives a fuck and during, everyone is telling people expressing dissent to wait until after the election. It's a nice little racket you've got going to avoid all accountability.

only serves, whatever your moral reasoning is, to increase the probability of a literally-fascists party win

That's categorically false. The things I complain about the loudest are things that are both wrong and unpopular.

For example, I predicted that there was a significant risk of Biden's insistence on staying in leading to a loss in November, partially because of his intransigence on Gaza. Now that he's stepped aside in favor of the first American presidential candidate to ever talk about the security and self determination of Palestinians, everyone including myself are much more optimistic about the election.

I'm not taking the credit for Biden finally seeing sense, of course, but it's a good example of people who don't want the Mango Mussolini to win criticizing the shortcomings of those in power is changing the chances for the better.

You've unwittingly volunteered as a stooge in the troll army helping the right. Congrats, you played yourself.

Nope. I bet you were one of the people saying that Biden dropping out 4 months before the election would guarantee a defeat. You were wrong then, you're wrong now, and you'll continue being wrong in the future.

You're strawmanning ultimatums that no one's saying

You flat out said that it IS a dichotomy. That's not a strawman, that's literally what you said in your own words.

All we're saying is that, functionally, high turnout for Democrats is the best outcome leftists get from the election.

And I agree on that. I just believe that the candidates earning the votes of the left by not doing awful things is more effective in generating turnout than just going "shut up and vote, children", like you are.

Republicans are worse for leftists than Democrats, across the board, full stop. Republicans are worse for the genocide you're talking about, full stop.

I know that and I've never said anything to the contrary. Who's strawmanning, now? 🙄

Muddying the water about the failings of democratic leadership are entirely counterproductive in securing an administration that's better for the left than the alternative

I'm not muddying any fucking waters. I'm just not following your authoritarian, paranoid and flat out wrong creed of "don't say ANYTHING negative about Democrats, otherwise Republicans win" 🙄

Or your equally authoritarian insistence that any behavior or policy better than that of the Republicans is perfect and nobody's allowed to say otherwise.

That's hyperbole to get the point through and mock your ridiculous position btw. Just clarifying in case you were about to call it a strawman again.

Big tenting with the neo-libs is how things haven't gotten more awful than they are.

No. Apparatchiks like you letting them get away with ignoring the left in favor of always pretending it's 1992 by chasing an ever-shrinking demographic of "almost but not quite Republicans" is how the party keeps drifting rightward every time the GOP does.

It's reached the point where the Dem leadership is not just an imperfect ally to the left, but more often than not the lesser of two adversaries. Pretending otherwise is not going to improve anything. Disallowing dissent is going to ensure that it gets even worse.