It's still capitalism when the government does things. It's not a mix of capitalism and socialism or whatever, it's just capitalism because what matters is who is in control. Under capitalism there is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, the owners of capital. Hence, capital-ism.

[–] Tinidril@midwest.social -1 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Under capitalism, corporations take over the government and use it to their own ends. Under communism, the government takes over the corporations and uses them to it's own ends. Either outcome ends up looking pretty much the same.

What we have in the west, especially America, is far more than just "the government doing stuff". Government power and corporate power have become nearly indistinguishable. Corporations don't make long term investments of any kind without government grants to ensure consistent steady profits. We are constantly at war, and those wars consistently serve corporate interests.

On the other side, every large scale implementation of Communist ideals has resulted instead in state capitalism.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

No, every implementation of a communist state (or even a vaguely leftish state) is ruthlessly hunted down and destroyed by capitalist powers - chiefly the United States.

[–] Tinidril@midwest.social -1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

So, no communist country is going to exist until all capitalist countries go away or are somehow prevented from interference? When do you see that happening?

A system that can't manage to sustain and defend it's own existence is simply not realistic, no matter how idealistic.

You first claimed that Communism never actually existed, now you are saying that they were crushed by capitalism. Which is it? Communism died in those countries as the countries were formed.

You are giving capitalist countries way too much credit, but that's a whole other web of individual discussions. Communism defeated itself, and what remained couldn't compete with (what passes for) free markets in Western democracies.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

You first claimed that Communism never actually existed

I literally didn't.

I support the actually existing Communist governments around the world: China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc.

Communism survives and China is eclipsing the US. And no, they're not capitalist. The Party is in control, politics is in command, they are advancing so incredibly quickly because they don't allow the market to run society or capital owners to be dictators.

And now Venezuela is being welcomed into the BRICS and we're seeing a pink tide all across Latin America. I'm quite optimistic we'll win this time.

By any means necessary.

[–] Tinidril@midwest.social -3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I literally didn’t.

You are literally correct. I got my threads mixed and I apologize. Still, claiming that...

every implementation of a communist state (or even a vaguely leftish state) is ruthlessly hunted down and destroyed by capitalist powers

... comes pretty darn close. Did America hunt down and destroy Communism in China, or is it still Communist?

Communism survives and China is eclipsing the US. And no, they’re not capitalist.

Well, no they aren't. Since this discussion started with me saying that neither communism or capitalism can exist outside of ideological exorcises, you shouldn't feel the need to tell me that.

The Party is in control, politics is in command, they are advancing so incredibly quickly because they don’t allow the market to run society or capital owners to be dictators.

Xi Jinping's estimated net worth is $1.2b. Is that not capital? For comparison, Joe Biden's net worth is $10m, though some estimates go up to $40m. Which country is run by capital owners again? If you think that Xi Jinping only makes capital allocation decisions in the interests of the average Chinese citizen, then I have a great wall to sell you.

By any means necessary.

And here I was actually taking you seriously.

[–] brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Xi Jinping’s estimated net worth is $1.2b.

Oh boy, I sure am excitedly to hear where this little factoid came from...

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 2 points 9 months ago

… comes pretty darn close. Did America hunt down and destroy Communism in China, or is it still Communist?

It's still controlled by a Communist Party and it's still building communism. The revolution isn't over yet. Actually existing socialism.

Xi Jinping’s estimated net worth is $1.2b. Is that not capital?

Literally no, capital is productive. Businesses, factories, warehouses, restaurants, farms, etc. Money is not capital in a Marxist sense, it's merely a means of exchange. I'm also skeptical he is actually a billionaire, that sounds like it's just some rough estimate made up by probusiness propaganda.

"But Biden isn't a businessman!" I hear you say, and no, he isn't. He also isn't in charge. His and his party's political donors are, and they own capital and they own Biden. He's just another one of their investments.

[–] brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml 3 points 9 months ago

Under communism, the government takes over the corporations and uses them to it’s own ends.

Least politically illiterate liberal.

[–] Eldritch@lemmy.world 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Under communism, the government takes over the corporations and uses them to it's own ends.

No, that is Leninism. Not communism. Those groups called themselves communist, communist party, communist Republic etc. But we're not communist in any significant sense beyond nominally.

Replace every time you mention communism with Leninism or ML and I largely agree however. Russia evolved into fascism. China is absolutely state capitalist. North Korea 100% a dictatorial nepo-state. But not because of communism.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Marxist-leninism is literally the base from which most communist theory exists. Most communists are some flavor or branch of ML, because it gets the goods.

You can't be a communist and reject all experiments at communism as "not real communism"

Russia evolved into fascism.

Yeah, after it was couped by US backed traitors and the US enforced fascism.

China is absolutely state capitalist.

Why is their industrial output not falling as they're firmly in the middle income country bracket then?

(If you can't understand the contradiction you haven't read enough theory about imperialism and neo-imperialism)

North Korea 100% a dictatorial nepo-state.

Yeah, and they make all the grandpas push the one train whenever it breaks down. The rats eat the children and the children eat the rats. /s

Have you actually looked at the government structure of the DPRK? You seem to be parroting a lot of state department propaganda for someone speaking with authority on what "real" communism is.

[–] Tinidril@midwest.social 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I don't exactly disagree, but that hardly counters my assertion that ideological Communism isn't something that has ever been successfully implemented on a substantial scale.

In the end it's all about centralizes power, whether that is political, social, or financial. That is why I support left-libertarianism. Every intervention by the government in free markets should be considered primarily in light of how it impacts the balance of power. That includes a robust safety net and universal healthcare, as both shift power to individuals and away from wealth.

We also need to completely revisit the concept of corporations and rework them into something that better serves the interests of everyone.

[–] brain_in_a_box@lemmy.ml 1 points 9 months ago

Every intervention by the government in free markets should be considered primarily in light of how it impacts the balance of power.

The capitalist free market is a product of the government, it only exists because of government intervention.

We also need to completely revisit the concept of corporations and rework them into something that better serves the interests of everyone.

Who's "we"? Under capitalism you don't get to make this decision.