I wouldn't say we were off topic, I was just specifically responding to "His moral righteousness is irrelevant to the fact that he is being persecuted for journalism."

The State is for sure requesting extradition in response to his prior journalistic work (and I do consider the 2010 leak as journalism), and that is of course wrong. However, I think it's still important to point out that he did engage in subversive actions that cannot be excused as journalism.

Doing so set a dangerous precedent for future journalist who look up to the man. The ironic thing is he wouldn't likely be in the situation he is in now if he has stuck to his stated principles, or listened to his colleagues. He would still be hounded by the US gov, but he would have still had countries that would safeguard him. Wikileaks would still be operational, and most importantly less sources would have faced federal prosecution.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I honestly don't see how it helps anyone but the US prosecution to point out that he was a subversive. Whether he's good or bad is irrelevant to whether the journalism he did should be made illegal.

And being subversive shouldn't be a crime either tbh

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

helps anyone but the US prosecution to point out that he was a subversive

Lol, I doubt my opinions on Lemmy will be influencing any federal prosecutors. I already stated that it's important for future generations to learn from both the success and mistakes of Assange. I don't really see how white washing his past really helps anyone.

Whether he's good or bad is irrelevant to whether the journalism he did should be made illegal.

Again, with the strawman? I've explicitly stated I don't agree with the prosecution of any legitimate journalistic endeavor. My point was that if there was any justification for prosecution it would be for his activities that do not fit within the scope of journalism. Since they are not charging him based on those actions, there is no legitimate justification for his current prosecution.

I dont really see the point in trying to deify a person as some sinless martyr. People are perfectly capable of doing both good and bad things, and I don't think we should shy from that fact. Your beliefs are being limited to a false dichotomy of Saint or sinner, when reality is rarely that simple.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Lol, I doubt my opinions on Lemmy will be influencing any federal prosecutors.

They influence the public, and the public can exert pressure on the government. Why do you think US propaganda has been so insistent that Assange is a Putin asset and enemy of democracy and danger to Americans? These propaganda points are coming straight from the top and you're parroting them for no reason.

There's zero benefit in participating in the smear campaign against Assange. This helps no one but the US prosecution. That doesn't mean we deify him, that just means we don't force threads to go off topic just to air grievances against him. You brought this up for no reason and forced this whole derail despite all my attempts to keep it on topic.

Sus.

I dont really see the point in trying to deify a person as some sinless martyr.

Again, with the strawman?

My point was that if there was any justification for prosecution it would be for his activities that do not fit within the scope of journalism.

And my point is that he is only being prosecuted for journalism. All these other """concerns""" you have are literally irrelevant and off topic, and they're being pushed by the US to make people less sympathetic to Assange so that they allow him to be prosecuted.

Maybe you don't agree with his prosecution, but you're pushing talking points that make it easier. This helps no one but the prosecution.

And it's sus.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 2 points 9 months ago

They influence the public, and the public can exert pressure on the government.

Maybe if we lived in a functional democracy? Right now it's pretty clear that public pressure has little to no effect on those with their hands on the reigns.

Why do you think US propaganda has been so insistent that Assange is a Putin asset and enemy of democracy and danger to Americans?

Again, they wouldn't have that ammunition if Assange was the boy scout of truth you attempt to make him out to be. His involvement with Russia and their interference election campaign, and his workings with Trump Jr gave fuel to that particular fire.

These propaganda points are coming straight from the top and you're parroting them for no reason.

Lol, yes me saying that his leaks about the Iraq and afghan war were legitimate acts of journalism that need to be protected, is exactly what Washington is parroting..... This is the false dichotomy I was talking about.

There's zero benefit in participating in the smear campaign against Assange

Ahh, so I'm not allowed to have any nuances opinions about an individual? There is no benefit in providing context? Sounds like you care more about your biases than the truth, which is ironic considering that the whole point of wikileaks was to bring transparency to complex issues.

This helps no one but the US prosecution. That doesn't mean we deify him, that just means we don't force threads to go off topic just to air grievances against him.

Lol, I think you have an overvalued sense of self importance . Nothing we do or say is going to influence a federal prosecutor, to think so is incredibly narcissistic.

And the whole point of engaging in discourse is to provide context and gain perspective that you haven't accounted for. If your only rebuttal to criticism or context is telling someone to shut up, I don't think you really have a complete grasp of your own beliefs.

You brought this up for no reason and forced this whole derail despite all my attempts to keep it on topic

You don't get to dictate what is and what isn't on topic. If I was talking about jelly beans, yeah I'd be off topic. Me discussing the surrounding context of assanges arrest, and why he's lost public support over the years is not rejecting the topic at hand.

Again, with the strawman?

It's not a straw man if that is the thing you are expressly trying to prevent. You have been aggressively campaigning to stop any criticism of a person, even if they are valid.

And my point is that he is only being prosecuted for journalism. All these other """concerns""" you have are literally irrelevant and off topic

And my point is that the reason they felt comfortable with actually pulling the trigger on his prosecution is directly related to the actions you say are off topic. If he has stuck with his principals and actually stuck to the journalism he's always claimed to value, he'd still have friends in high places who would stick their necks out to protect him.

But in the last 5-10 years he's consistently burned every bridge offered to him. Just look at his experience in the embassy. The Ecuadorian government spent real political capital and money safeguarding him, and how does he repay them? By being a complete ass to people and eventually spying on them.

My point is that it is irresponsible to portray his current situation as a scenario where his prior actions were inconsequential to his current predicament. That it was inevitable that the government would eventually imprison him no matter what. That portrays the government as some all powerful all knowing organization that operates outside the rules of power. Taking away Assanges responsibility/agency in his mess will just lead others to believe that no matter what you do you are never outside the reach of the US gov, and that is just untrue.

Maybe you don't agree with his prosecution, but you're pushing talking points that make it easier. This helps no one but the prosecution.

So now it's my fault that he abandoned his journalistic integrity, or should we just not be talking about it? This is the inherent flaw with not being transparent. The dark spot in the room no one is talking about injects a vacuum into the discourse that can be filled with anything. In my opinion, when we shine a light on to the dark it robs the vacuum reactionaries utilize to control the discourse.

Truth is our only weapon, unlike the government we don't have the ability to control the narrative with an infrastructure of colluding media. Our only tool is to point out the internal contradictions that they utilize to keep people in the dark. However, this weapon can be easily countered if they can point out a wisp of hypocrisy.

You being so insistent on preserving the vacuum of opaqueness for reactionaries to rally around is in my eyes, very "sus" as you say.