[Outdated, please look at pinned post] Casual Conversation

I don't know where they get this idea that treating women as lesser is somehow attractive*. I had one once tell me that I was lucky to have a pretty face because my body would put most men off, and then he expected to get laid. Like, what? My dude that is not how any of this works.

But experiences like this help us learn to spot those red flags earlier. And frankly it can also be a self-esteem boost, like you clearly respect yourself enough to have kicked this guy to the curb and that's something to feel great about! You know you're worthy of better and that you didn't bring this on yourself. Meanwhile he's just got another in probably a long line of romantic failures that are entirely of his own doing.

Have to admit, and I don't mean to pry, but I am SO curious how he responded when you laid it out logically for him like that.

Anyway, solidarity. So much solidarity.

* well ok, I do know. but it's very very silly.

If it helps, those guys treat other guys the same way.

Also if it helps there are women who treat other people this way too.

This seems akin to racism to me. My favorite quote about this is from President Lyndon B. Johnson. "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

My dad isn't this kind of guy, but he is an old white guy that watches Fox News. And it's the same thing with them. He has bought any number of supplements advertised on Fox News, and believes wholeheartedly that one day the world will finally understand the deep wisdom he believes in.

I don't believe you can categorize people as a simple either or. "You're a red piller or not." "You're a conservative or a liberal." But I do think you can apply a personality type to people. And it sounds like you sussed out a guy who really needs to feel superior to other people. I fucking hate those kind of people. So good for you, there are a lot of people who may have never figured it out, or weren't socially aware enough to see it. It sucks this turned out to be what it was, but celebrate the fact you're a strong enough person not to put up with it

I think my response would be “and yet, so many men still fall for shysters like Andrew Tate”.

Well done on getting out. He sounds like a ~~dad~~ sad case.

The Internet lets all the village idiots find each other

If it helps anything, I can imagine men usually assume they are as an individual more logical and capable than other men as well. Projecting this on women is just even easier as other man will agree.

https://xkcd.com/610

Glad you dodged this bullet.

I had a coworker-friend who was too into right wing Internet stuff, and trying to deprogram him was hard work. People spend hours soaking up glossy garbage and find communities of like minded people. I think I only made any progress at all with that guy because we were already friendly over work and video game shared experiences.

The guy from your post is probably on some "manosphere" website complaining about how his misfortune right now. Maybe one day he'll realize he's the primary architect of his poor outcomes.

You know, I'm something of a man myself..

..and that dude's a dick.

It's so fucking tiring. Youtube is constantly pushing that shit to me for some reason so idk if it's really so widespread or if the Algo thinks I'd fall for it

That’s fucking rough. The manosphere is such a sad thing because it’s con artists and assholes profiting off selling men the idea that they can be worse people. Nobody is actually happier enforcing patriarchy, it’s just that shedding it can be uncomfortable and difficult.

I will second that there are great feminist men out there. My metamour is an amazing guy who doesn’t tolerate any toxic masculinity or misogyny and clearly tries to lead by example on the front of being masculine as fuck in a healthy and positive way.

Good on you. Next time you want to go "fuck all men" remember that would be stooping as low as a misogynist, only on the other side of the road.

The silver lining is that pain helps people see flag's true colours better. So you will (I hope) not waste time with someone else showing similar warning signs next time.

The "win" is that I see much less if that kind of discourse on Lemmy.

Sorry for you, OP

You are allowed to get annoyed at an entire gender. Just get annoyed then calm down then move on. Never judge yourself for an intrusive thought. Judge yourself based on what you actually say and actually do.

And good for you for moving on.

Hey, since you asked to share wins we've had in this regard:

Not a woman, but something that has occasionally worked for me is sharing this one article. It's called The magical thinking of guys who love logic.

It sometimes works with those guys that believe that men are inherently more logical than women like the one you mentioned. Though in my experience this article is most effective with atheist men and not so much with religious men, since it has a bit of a focus on criticizing a type of militant online atheism (a superficial type of atheism I might add and one that paradoxically reproduces a sort of puritan mindset masked under progressivism, much like TERFism, sex-negative "progressives" and some other current mindsets). It also works best if the guys on question are already a bit open to criticism (or at least like to pretend they are open-minded) since the article starts with a tone of criticizing right-wing ideologies.

I'm a dude, what is the manosphere?

So bizarre, the internet has just opened so many stupid people to various forms of grifters, but the toxic masculinity crowd are the absolute worst. Sorry your old friend turned out to be a turd. Glad you’re smart enough to recognize it and move forward with your life.

You’ll find someone kind and worthwhile - just takes sifting through a fuckload of hay before you find the needle. Unfortunately you found a worm instead of hay this time - gross, but just toss it to the side and keep searching. 💜

Tbh for me it’s been hard to keep putting energy into it, every time I break up with someone else I just feel like all that energy was wasted which is stupid because I definitely learn things from each relationship but god damn I just wanna find my human. ffs. Ngl I turned 30 and was just like well either I grow some thick skin and get on with it or I’m gonna fuckin die alone lmao. So easy to just give up after a shitty breakup and just be single… Idk, no lesson there - just sharing.

You asked for wins so here’s mine - I’ve been in a relationship with someone for about 3 months now and signs are good even post honeymoon-period. She actually cares and doesn’t have gender expectations of me at all, which is refreshing because I work somewhere that I’m basically expected to be masculine and it’s nice to get to be the little spoon occasionally and not have to put on a stupid mask of projected confidence and stoicism I feel like I have to at work. She doesn’t judge me if I cry a little. We both go out of our way to do nice things for each other and it actually feels like it might be a legit partnership - I’m cautiously optimistic this time! ☺️

Just yesterday I was telling a female coworker about how toxic masculinity is such a hard thing to recognize for men and even more difficult to overcome. The example was how the two guys who hold a senior IT position were always fixing problems in a vacuum and not sharing with others how it was fixed or what the problem was. And how that is hurting the whole group.

I absolutely disagree with your guy friend and I am sorry that it worked out like it did. Good for you for making the right choice. I hope you find a much more healthy relationship soon :)

Ugh this shit makes me so MAD!! I'm sorry you had to experience that, and I'm proud of you for recognizing the warning signs and leaving.

Yeah sure, it's not all men, but it sure seems like all women (that date men) have dealt with this garbage to the point where they have to constantly be on the lookout for these same shit. And these guys know that it's a problem, so they hide it and each flag you see isn't necessarily red (cause maybe he's just oblivious/misinformed/joking/whatever), and you need to keep a list of these maybe-problems and make a determination if is the one that means all these other things were actually red flags. Also - everyone is excited and thinks their partner is the best at the beginning of a relationship, and it's hard to identify a red flag when you're wearing rose-colored glasses.

"Schrodinger's douchebag" is the guy who says something problematic, then decides whether it was a joke depending on the reaction he gets. Women collect a bunch of Schrodinger's red flags, that only become glaringly red when you already know the guy's a dick.

I'd HIGHLY recommend the book "Why does he do that" for both men and anyone who dates men. The author works with abusive men, and discusses the root causes of the problematic behavior that so many women experience. TL;DR: Men have deep-seated expectations for how their partner should behave and make them feel, and deviations from those expectations are met with anger. I'm not abusive, but reading it helped me identify similar thought patterns that I had, and I'm a better partner for it.

I think there's a seed of truth in "fuck all men" since all men ARE exposed to problematic worldviews and the "traditional" set of expectations for a relationship are patriarchal. Yes, there are exceptions, but "men" as an abstract group hold those views, and FUCK those guys.

Gender studies as in the kind you learn in college or as in just the research field?

I have lived this kind of experience many times and would've pointed out to him it seems awfully indoctrination-like that he's so willing to override his memories he shares with you with ethical odds and ends he picked up later. Due to asexuality, this is even amped up for me, as asexuality to the manosphere is like Antarctica to a flat earther, in that it must not exist if the objective does. So I could often go for some of those guy friends.