r/startrek: The Next Generation
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I like it, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that you're talking about Discovery. I've said in the past that the show should be called "Star Trek: Michael Burnham" as it would at least be more honest.
To be fair, I think every series has a lot of episodes that would fail this test, some of which were excellent, like DS9's "In the Pale Moonlight", and "Far Beyond the Stars" or TNG's "The Inner Light", but if used to assess a series, I think this could be a good metric.
To be fair, I think every series has a lot of episodes that would fail this test, some of which were excellent, like DS9’s “In the Pale Moonlight”, and “Far Beyond the Stars” or TNG’s “The Inner Light”, but if used to assess a series, I think this could be a good metric.
Indeed, "In the Pale Moonlight" is one I thought of which fails as well. I still think it makes a good measure to see how many episodes of a show pass/fail overall. Only to see if it's really about the whole crew or mostly one character. (Arguably, early TNG comes really close to being Star Trek: Wesley while mid/late TNG comes close to Star Trek: Data.)
I've seen this complaint a lot with some of the newer shows, but it doesn't really resonate with me. A good central character ought to be able to carry a show, and I don't hold Trek as being inherently different in that regard. In fact, I think the original series would have been an example of a show like that if Spock's popularity hadn't been taken into consideration by later writers. Even then, I believe it would have a pretty low "pass" rate compared to all the '90s series.
(Incidentally, since Burnham wasn't Captain until season 4, Discovery passes on a technicality for most of its run).
.... Even then, I believe [TOS] would have a pretty low “pass” rate compared to all the '90s series.
Agreed. I note elsewhere in this thread that I think TOS would struggle with this little "test" and it was THE Star Trek show when it all started.
(Incidentally, since Burnham wasn’t Captain until season 4, Discovery passes on a technicality for most of its run).
Indeed it would pass and I think the captains/crew of those seasons were well portrayed and balanced Burnham's presence as a character as well.
I’ve seen this complaint a lot with some of the newer shows, but it doesn’t really resonate with me. A good central character ought to be able to carry a show, and I don’t hold Trek as being inherently different in that regard.
As you say. And to be clear, I'm not taking this too seriously, nor is it meant to be a complaint. Just a measure I noticed in my own mind. I am still watching all the Star Trek made, whether it "passes" this measure or not.
All fair, and I appreciate how much you're trying to avoid Trekkie infighting in this thread. I'm not always so conscientious about that, but it is, after all, just a TV show.
There are so many episodes in all the series but here’s a few from Voyager: VOY: “The Chute”, “Dreadnought”, “Learning Curve”, “Meld”, “One”, "Once Upon a Time”, “Timeless”… the list goes on. Many other episodes focus on a single member of the crew, many times with the Captain not being an important part of the story at all.
Definitely and many that fail. I wonder if it works as a measure based on percentage of the show as a whole. Then again, it really doesn't matter at all; I only noticed that I get annoyed with certain shows which overuse a single savior for the show's overall story.
I love this! Now you need to do an analysis like this one on Star Trek and the Bechdel-Wallace test!
I realize you’re not trying to predict quality, just personal enjoyability, but I do wonder how it relates to quality.
I actually think it might be slightly more predictive of the quality of a show overall than of individual episodes. But both ST:TOS and ST:TNG have many great captain-centric episodes that I’m not sure if it is predictive of episode quality particularly.
I love this! Now you need to do an analysis like this one on Star Trek and the Bechdel-Wallace test!
TOS is already a rough rewatch with some of its acting and portrayals of the future. I can't imagine how tough it would be to rewatch it through that lens. Haha!
I realize you’re not trying to predict quality, just personal enjoyability, but I do wonder how it relates to quality.
I don't mean for this to measure quality. To each their own, as they say. After all, it is just entertainment and I'm free to watch anything else or skip this or that episode. This is all just a fun observation for me, much like a discussion on the finer points of warp theory or Federation economics.
Still, I'm glad it's something that clicked for you too. I figured there would be a number of people whose appreciation of Trek relates to this "test".
Counter-proposal: Same thing, except instead of crew members it's people from whatever non-Federation civilisation is involved that week.
I like that too. I'm not sure it would counter these "rules".
How would you propose phrasing a rule for that non-Fed criteria?
It's just a thought. On further consideration I'd probably broaden it to any non-Starfleet faction. In cases where there is one involved in the plot I like it when they're portrayed in more depth than is usual.
I like that idea. It measures the depth/breadth of the world-building that way too.
Does this apply to Lower Decks, or do we just automatically pass them all?
I'm not sure. Perhaps "Captain and Crew Test" isn't the right way to look at it either. ST:LD seems to do a good job of not focusing too much on one story or character per episode, so it avoids failure even if every character is "the captain".
There would have to be some way of reworking the criteria to evaluate overall balance (as mentioned elsewhere in this thread) rather than just Captain and Crew, I guess.
Regardless, that's a really good question. Hmmmm
TNG's the inner light is one of its best episodes and it spectacularly fails this test.
So very true. Such a great episode!
Here's an addendum with a few great episode examples which might pass my "test".
Other shows also have great episodes that pass, but I want to stop here for my examples so as to avoid showing my hand (too much) and stating which show(s) I think fail.
You need to test bad episodes like Code of Honor, Up the Long Ladder, and Sub Rosa to see if they pass too, though.
No arguments for or against these yet? I'll nudge this part of the conversation by pointing out that TOS -- THE original Star Trek show -- seems to have a high percentage of episodes which would "fail" this silly "test".
I think most of ST:LD pass your test, if not all of them
I fully agree that your "rules" need adjustment, starting with the fact that you engineered them around your personal dislikes.
As opposed to what? Your personal dislikes? Should Alison Bechdel have checked in with men first too?
A fair point. However, I just think this sums up my preferences for Trek shows well and had a feeling that many would agree.
Meanwhile, other people might have an internal measure for their preferences which amounts to "is not animated", eliminating TAS and ST:LD.
To be clear, for everyone reading: I have watched every episode of every Star Trek show; I greatly and sincerely appreciate and value the time, effort, and energy of the production crew, writers, and actors of every show. These media of entertainment are impactful and deeply meaningful. Every show has a message for its current time and future audiences and it is so important that, as a fan, I hear those messages and allow myself to appreciate this art as an audience member.