this post was submitted on 13 Mar 2024
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LOL @ Russia lecturing anyone else on birth rates and human rights.
Yes, it's all cynical, but interesting to see.
Specially when many communist/socialist militants but every Russian idea, while Russias ideals are totally against to what communists in West want
How about you just admit that you’re anti-abortion instead of trying to frame this Russian propaganda as interesting.
I'm also anti abortion, if abortion is seem as contraceptives. That's why there are condoms. It someone gets arrested for using abortion as contraceptive I won't mind..if they don't get arrested, I also won't mind.
But I would not abort myself and I would vote for prohibiting using it as contraceptive method.
In case of rape or fetus death or seriously mental or health issues on fetus I'm for allowing abortion.
How generous of you, except that those who you align with aren’t so generous and your claim that this should be state by state leads to the literal rape victims going to jail for losing a pregnancy through no fault of their own. In short, you have no business in these discussions because yours is untrustworthy opinion.
Well, you obviously won't get it thru nationwide voting because you don't have enough votes.. your only chance is state-wide vote.
Or move to Europe.
Something I've been thinking about recently, maybe you can help-
If you believe abortion is murder, then it seems you believe it is okay to murder the children of rapists.
I said in case of rape I'm for abortion.
This whole abort: yes or no is stupid. It depends on situation.
I am against abortion as contraceptive. For other edge cases I'm open to it.
Please explain yourself. Why are you for abortion in the case of rape and why are you against abortion as contraceptive?
By abortion as contraceptive I mean "I don't want to use a condom, I'll just abort later". I am against that.
If someone don't want to have a child, just use a condom, or do a vasectomy, or remove the uterus, or use a intra uterine device, or any other method, but don't banalize it with the mindset "whatever, I'll just abort it later"
Yes, I already knew what you meant.
I want the why. What's wrong with the mindset “whatever, I’ll just abort it later” and why are you against it?
I mean, if the fetus is 2 or 2 weeks old (I can't pinpoint an exact date, would have to ask some doctors), for me it's clearly not a person, cannot feel pain and has no instinct of self preservation. In this case a "next day pill" or something similar wouldn't be bad for in my view.
Up to which week of pregnancy and which conditions would you think it's ok to abort, and above hoe many weeks and conditions would you say it's not ok to abort?
Okay, so survival instinct and pain response? Like any animal? I guess I get that, I'm vegan after all.
But that leaves a gaping hole in your justification for a fetus conceived from rape. They develop the same as any fetus. What's the difference? Isn't this literally a case of punishing the fetus for the sins of the father?
As for me, I don't believe any restrictions on abortion are legitimate and recognize pregnancy as a burden that the fetus has no right to inflict it on anybody. Personhood is irrelevant to me because abortion is self defense.
I don't talk I'm terms of sin because it makes no sense for me.
Yes, a women has rights over her body, but a fetus is clearly not her body. A women would not remove her liver or her legs. The fetus depends on her body, but is not her body. A doctor cannot turn off a life support system on a patience just by saying "its my life support device "
For me there's a collision of rights: the rights of the women to her body, the right of the baby to it's life, the right of the father to not have his child murdered (if he opposed it).
The fact the a women/human has much more power over a defenseless baby doesn't change the collision of rights, specially when since 1970 12 million babies were killed in abortion.
For me there should be conditions in which it's cirminalized and conditions in which it's not.
Pregnancy is a harm being inflicted and we have a right to defend ourselves from harm. It is self defense. A doctor does not have the right to kill in defense of property, but we all have the right to kill in defense of our bodies.
You are not answering the other, much bigger question. Why is a fetus conceived by rape less deserving of life? I say you're punishing the fetus for the sins of the father because you're condemning it to death. Why?
If pregnancy is harm inflicted, why would a women inflict harm on herself? You can't self defense against yourself.
She got pregnant because she wanted or didnt bother enough to prevent it. If she doesn't want to get harmed, use a preservative.
About rape: I don't use the word sin because it's religious. I am not condening it to death, the mother aborting is. But in this case as It was not her choice to get raped, so obvious she should not be treated as if it was her choice.
I'm granting the fetus personhood and saying that, even when we do that, termination is justified because it is self defense. The fetus is a person invading my body, mutilating my body, and causing pain to my body. Under this formulation, pregnancy is an incredible mercy and sacrifice made for us even though we don't deserve to have been born.
So it's about punishing women for having unsafe sex?
That doesn't explain why it's okay to kill the fetus, though. The fetus didn't choose to be conceived from rape. Why does it deserve to die?
2)Who said it's ok to kill the fetus? I just said the mother who is victim rape cannot suffer the same consequence as one who didn't bother.
Or are you in proposing they should be both criminalized the same?
Consent can always be revoked, which means it's self-defense even if I changed my mind about getting pregnant. I'm defending myself against the fetus. It has no right to use my body against my will, even if I changed my mind.
Pregnancy is a mercy and you should be grateful for being born, not feel like you're entitled to it.
You are. You 're literally saying that abortion is acceptable in cases of rape, which means you believe its okay to kill a fetus conceived by rape.
So if you can't give a baby a right over it's body just because you are more powerful and needed the convenience of it, what makes you think that some lawmaker should give you a right over your body, given the the lawmakers are much more powerful than you?
You don't want to show mercy to a defenseless child, but expecy mercy towards you?
Even if a fetus has a right to it's body, it does not have a right to mine. My right to my body means a fetus can't use my body against my will. No one is allowed to use my body without my permission, and if they try I will fucking kill them.
I don't expect mercy from my enemies. I'm not some liberal, I know how politics work. I expect I am going to have to fight for my rights.
This means that when you abort you should then not destroy the baby body. But if you see an abortion vídeo then the baby is destroyed and killed.
And of you first allow a baby to enter you body, then you change mind and want to take it out, you can. Then put it in an incubator and pay the machinery and find a family which wants to take care of it. But once you "fucking kill it", you are going to "fucking court".
If you don't like the fact that your uterus will produce babies and you don't want to go to court, then "fucking remove your uterus" before you make a baby and blame it for your lack of care
That's the only way to get it out without either slicing me open or forcing birth, and my right to my body means I will not be forced to do those things. That shit hurts and is dangerous, I do not have to hurt myself or put myself in danger for other people.
Remember that this was the law before fascists stole the court and if liberals weren't such stupid fucking cowards it still would be.
Or I can identify my enemies and defeat them.
You were defeated before and you will be defeated again. Never forget that we outnumber you.
So everyone you disagree with is a fascist? That's the spoiled kids reaction to disagreement.
You don't outnumber no one. Most of people are against total abortion ban, but also agains total freedom of abortion as you want.
Actually only 1/3 of the US population agree with abortion with no limits. So for each of you, there are 2 against you. You don't outnumber anyone.
If you say you want abortion up to 3 monthes, then you have 69% of the population with you. I'm probably under this 69%
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/15/gallup-survey-abortion-support-united-states
No, stealing the Court through undemocratic means is fascist and using that to make abortion illegal wherever they can is fascist.
Fifty-two percent of Americans say abortion is morally acceptable, according to your link, and there's only two sides to this debate. Are you anti-abortion or pro-abortion? There are no other choices, and the sooner you realize this the sooner we can defeat anti-abortion.
Stealing the court? He got elected and put his judges there as the law allows. Of course it's stupid that US law is this shit, but it's not stealing.
The article distinguishes between "being legal in first 3 monthes", "legal under any circumstances", "morally acceptable", "later term abortion", "second trimester abortion" and "final trimester abortion".
For your wish of total free abortion, with no time limite and whatever reason, the article says:
"At the same time, the survey showed 34% of Americans believe abortion should be legal under any circumstances". So, you are only 1/3.
I'm ok with abortion somewhere inside the first 2 or 3 monthes, and afterwards only in special cases like rape or risk to the women or fetus, or if the women/couple asked for abortion on the first trimester but the court was slow to answer.
For me, the later it is, the more reasons it has to be given to allow it
He lost the popular vote. He got elected because the US is not a democracy and undemocratic power is stolen from the People.
Then the Senate, itself an undemocratic institution that assigns power by State instead of by population size, made up new rules to give him two Justices. And doesn't even get into Gerrymandering and voter suppression and disenfranchisement and all the other undemocratic forms and structures within the US voting system.
It was stolen, and liberals let him steal it because he followed all the rules. Just because stealing is legal doesn't mean it isn't obviously stealing.
And my point is, in the real world, there are only two choices. Pro-choice and anti-abortion. That's it. You don't get to have your sooper speshul halfway position where you pick parts of one side and parts of another side and come to your own conclusion, you have to pick a side. Your or my personal individual opinion is irrelevant, all that matters are the two camps.
You have to choose.
And right now it sounds like you're picking the side that is banning abortion.
Your views that there's only extreme options is very unproductive.
You make people who could help you run away from you like that.
Let's agree to disagree. I learned some stuff in our conversation, but from now on any further interaction will not be beneficial to any of us
And if the condom fails, is abortion then okay?
I don't have anything against the next day pill or abortion on the first 2/3 monthes
Well, isn't "abortion on the first three months" just a long version of what is meant in general when talking about abortion?
It's e.g. a 7th-month-abortion really a thing in your country or any country at all?
If you see the discussion here, there was people defending abort at any time, under any circumstances (ie, on the 8th month just because "I changed my mind")
If your moral beliefs about murder are circumstantial, they’re not your morals, they’re your opinions.
If you truly believe abortion is murder, rape babies have a right to be born.
If you believe in exceptions for rape, shows what you really care about is controlling women. Basically “the only moral abortion is my own”.
No, it means I am against, but in the case that the women didn't have a choice (like rape), I'd be sorry for the baby and be very sad, it would still be bad for the child, but I'd accept it with a heavy heart for the child
You’re playing word games here. Is it murder to abort a rape baby?
If you accept it with a heavy heart, you’re acknowledging abortion is not murder.
Murder is wrong, but your ”heavy heart” does not justify taking away a woman’s right to control her body.
Well, if I kill someone In a car crash, depending if I did it on purpose or not, of the person I killed was trying to commit a crime against me or not, I I get different legal consequences.
This is a women/couple aborts because of rape, it was clearly not her intention to be raped and she should not be treated as someone who aborted by thinking "whatever, I just don't like this fetus"
Sounds like you want to ban abortion as a way of controlling women’s sexuality.
Well, only spoiled children want to do whatever they want and don't be accountable for it.
If you can't use your brain to take Biology into account before having unprotected sex while fertile, I suggest you remove your uterus or if you are a man you do vasectomy
Did you even read anything they said?