this post was submitted on 01 Jun 2024
0 points (NaN% liked)

Technology

59587 readers
4578 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

[T]he report's executive summary certainly gets to the heart of their findings.

"The rhetoric from small modular reactor (SMR) advocates is loud and persistent: This time will be different because the cost overruns and schedule delays that have plagued large reactor construction projects will not be repeated with the new designs," says the report. "But the few SMRs that have been built (or have been started) paint a different picture – one that looks startlingly similar to the past. Significant construction delays are still the norm and costs have continued to climb."

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] daltotron@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

So an interesting thing I've noticed people doing is basically claiming that whatever other side is being astroturfed by the "real evil", right. "Fossil fuel is funding renewable FUD of nuclear reactors!" or "Fossil fuels is funding nuclear FUD of renewables!". You can also see this with liberals claiming that anyone who disagrees with the DNC is a Russian bot, and with people who disagree with libs claiming that libs fund radical right-wing candidates as an election strategy and that this is one of the reasons why they are basically just as bad as those right-wingers.

The core thing you need to understand about this, as a claim, is that they can both be true. They can both be backed opposition, controlled opposition, astroturfing. Because it's not so much that they're funding one racehorse that they want to be their opposition, so much as they are going to fund both sides, plant bad faith actors among both sides, bad faith discourse and division, thought terminating cliches, logical fallacies, whatever, and then by fueling the division, they've successfully destroyed their opposition. The biggest help to the fossil fuels lobby isn't the fact that conversations about nuclear or renewables are happening when "we should be pushing, we should be in emergency mode, everyone should agree with me or get busted" right, as part of this "emergency mode" is us having these conversations. No, the biggest help to fossil fuels lobbies is the nature of the discourse, rather than the subjects of the discourse.

Also I find it stupid that people are arguing for all in on one of the other. That's dumb. Really, very incredibly dumb. Mostly as I see this discourse happening in a disconnected top-down vacuum separate from any real world concerns because everyone just wants to be "correct" in the largest sense of the word and then have that be it. Realistically, renewables and nuclear are contextually dependant. Renewables can be better supplemented by energy storage solutions to solve their not matching precisely the power usage curves and trends, but a lot of those proposed storage solutions require large amounts of concrete, careful consideration of environmental effects, and large amounts engineering, i.e. the same shit as nuclear. It can both be true that baseload doesn't matter so much as things like solar can more closely match the power usage curves naturally for desert climates where large amounts of sunlight and heat will create larger needs for A/C, and it can also be true that baseload is a reality in other cases where you can't as easily transition power needs or try to offset them without larger amounts of infrastructural investment or power losses. Can't exactly preheat homes in the day so they stay warm at night, in a cold climate, if the r-values for your homes are ass because everyone has a disconnected suburban shithovel that they're not recouping maintenance costs of when they pay taxes.

These calculations of cost offsets and efficiencies have to be made in context, they have to be based in reality, otherwise we're just arguing about fucking nothing at all. Maybe I will also hold water in the debates for money not being a great indicator of what's possible, probable, or what's the best long term solution for humanity, too, just to put that out there. But God damn this debate infuriates me to no end because people want to have their like, universal one size fits all top down kingly decree take of, well is this good or bad, instead of just understanding a greater, more nuanced take on the subject.

If you wanna have a top-down take on what's the best, you probably want global, big solar satellites, that beam energy down with microwave lasers.

[–] machinin@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Does anyone know about the technology that nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers use? Why are they able to operate but we can't use the same technology on land?

[–] WhiteHotaru@feddit.de 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Because if the military wants something, budgets are big. And they do not need to make money.

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Military expenses, the only socialism acceptable to Americans.

[–] Zron@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Gotta love how the post office is legally required to show they can turn a profit, but the military has a history of building literal burn pits that essentially burn US tax dollars by lighting equipment on fire and giving soldiers cancer.

[–] PriorityMotif@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I don't think the military should show a profit. That would just bring back colonialism. Although, they do make a hefty profit for defense contractors.

[–] Zron@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

The fact that this was your take away is concerning.

No government service should have to show a profit. If it’s an essential service, then it needs to be done. The only time money should come into it is in regular audits to ensure the budget is being used efficiently.

[–] assassinatedbyCIA@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

I’m pretty sure most military reactors use weapons grade uranium that’s enriched to mid 90%. Countries get sensitive when you start enriching uranium to the mid 90s.

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 0 points 5 months ago

It's expensive in subs too

[–] Poayjay@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

I was a nuclear operator in the Navy. Here are the actual reasons:

  1. The designs are classified US military assets
  2. They are not refuleable
  3. They only come in 2 “sizes”: aircraft carrier and submarine
  4. They are not scaleable. You can just make a reactor 2x as big
  5. They require as much down time as up time
  6. They are outdated
  7. The military won’t let you interrupt their supply chain to make civilian reactors
  8. New designs over promise and underdeliver
  9. They are optimized for erratic operations (combat) not steady state (normal power loads)
  10. They are engineered assuming they have infinite sea water available for everything

There’s more but that’s just off the top of my head

[–] pizzazz@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Lemy has such a hard on against nuclear. I'm seeing reports by antinuclear think tank grifters shoved in my face almost daily...

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I've seen opinions very strongly in both directions on here. I'm very pro-nuclear, but the largest issues they face is always bureaucracy. It sucks that an artificial thing is what's stopping then usually, but it is true. We need some protections to keep things safe, but it seems too harsh for nuclear compared to the dangers it presents opposed to the dangers of other power sources.

[–] pizzazz@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

Absolutely, and it's by design by candid admission of environmentalist organizations and green parties. Their objective was over regulating the industry beyond any rationality and they succeeded.

[–] vzq@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Lemy has such a hard on against nuclear

Maybe you should spend more time outside. Every flavor of nuclear has worse approval ratings than most dirtbag politicians.

I'm seeing reports by antinuclear think tank grifters shoved in my face almost daily...

Why do you think you need to PAY people to oppose nuclear? After seven decades of cockamamie “this time it’s different” schemes most people just moved on.

[–] pizzazz@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

Woa bro I was saying hard on but this is a full on raging erection maybe you should deal with your frustrations

[–] BrightCandle@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

They are still going for big building size reactors that have site specific details even if the core is built in a "factory". This still doesn't scale well.

I wonder if it can be economical to go smaller still and ship a reactor and power generation (TRG maybe or a small turbine) that then doesn't require much other than connecting wiring and plumbing and its encased in at least one security layer covered in sensors if something goes wrong its all contained. Then its just a single lorry with a box you wire in. That has a chance of being scalable and easy to deploy and I can't help but think there is a market for ~0.5-10 KW reactors if they can get the lowest end down to about $20,000, it would compete OK with solar and wind price wise.

I suspect no one has bothered because the regulatory overhead means it has to be big enough to be worth it and like Wind power scales enormously with the size of the plant. But what I want is a tiny reactor in my basement, add a few batteries for dealing with the duck curve and you have something that will sit there producing power for 25 years and a contract for it be repaired and ultimately collected at end of life.

You can sort of do this today using the Tritium glow sticks and solar cells but it doesn't last long enough and the price is not competitive. Going more directly to the band gap in a silicon or something else semi-conductive and a long lived nuclear material could maybe get a little closer price wise.

[–] intensely_human@lemm.ee 0 points 5 months ago

I think the ones small enough for a truck are called micro reactors and they top out at 30 MW

[–] Sidyctism2@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 5 months ago (7 children)

You want people to have their own private nuclear reactor in their basement?

Nukeheads are insane

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

That's some real 1950s futurism.

Ford proposed a car with a nuclear reactor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

[–] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 0 points 5 months ago (3 children)

I wouldn't mind one in my basement... If I had a basement. But I do have a nice shed, where a 30MW reactor would fit nicely.

Nukeheads are insane

That's your opinion. My opinion is that we need distributed power generation that can handle baseload. And neither solar nor wind can do that. My personal experience is, that our wind turbine usually doesn't spin for several periods of up to 10 days in December through March. And energy storage with the required capacity still doesn't exist either. Thus the power plants will be burning LNG, biomass, garbage or oil and coal, for the foreseeable future.

A centrally controlled, well regulated, network of small reactors will solve the problem.

[–] hellofriend@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

Look, friend: as much as I like nuclear energy and decentralization of the powder grid, per home reactors could never, ever work. For the simple reason that the majority of us filthy apes are complete idiots. Furthermore, nuclear works currently because it has oversight by educated, trained professionals in a setting where oversight can be effective. Even if you had some sort of travelling nuclear engineer that would check up on your garage reactor, if anything ever went wrong with it then the response time would be too long to adequately deal with the situation.

The only way a distributed network of reactors could work is if it either had massive overhead or if literally everyone had training on the maintenance of a nuclear reactor. And this isn't even mentioning the possibility of adverse weather events potentially damaging the reactor or how the waste would be dealt with.

[–] bc93@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The majority of studies show that a global transition to 100% renewable energy across all sectors – power, heat, transport and industry – is feasible and economically viable.

[–] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Actually, none of them do. This other guy is insane and no one gets a reactor in their basement, but we have neither the production capacity nor the time to avoid nuclear being a significant portion of all energy in a fissile free future.

[–] bc93@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

You’d better let the International Energy Agency, a department of the OECD, know that their research and report is wrong, then.

“Substantiated by in-depth case studies, this report infers that, almost anywhere on the planet, nearly 100% variable renewable energy (VRE) resources such as solar and wind power grids firmly supplying clean power and meeting demand 24/365 are not only possible but would be economically viable.”

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 0 points 5 months ago

Nuclear reactors are ill-suited for baseloads, because they can't scale their output in an economical way.

You always want the cheapest power available to fulfill demand, which is solar and wind. Those regularly provide more than 100% of the demand. At this point, any other power sources would shut off due to economical reasons. Same with nuclear, nobody wants to buy expensive nuclear energy at peak solar/wind hours, so the reactor needs to turn off. And while some designs can fairly quickly power down, powering up is a different matter and doing either in an economically feasible way is a fantasy right now.

If solar and wind don't provide enough power to satisfy demand, some other power source needs to turn on. Studies have already shown that current-gen battery storage is capable of doing so. Alternatives could be hydrogen or gas power stations. Nuclear isn't an option economically speaking.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›