this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
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Asklemmy

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What can we do to keep the web open?

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[–] philluminati@lemmy.ml 203 points 1 year ago (4 children)
[–] mim@lemmy.sdf.org 81 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Shout-out to Librewolf as well (basically Firefox with better privacy focused configs).

People don't care enough about using browsers that reduce Google's influence on web standards (i.e. non chrome-based browsers)

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 33 points 1 year ago

IME, big momentous events are actually continuous transitions that we only notice in a drastic moment.

This whole chrome thing has been building to this for ages. So beyond using Firefox, there’s also some basic principles that need to be formulated and distributed as “it’s free because you’re the product” is now … not to mention breaking up monopolies.

[–] jackfrost@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

And an alternate email service like ProtonMail.

They also have ProtonDrive as an alternative to Google Drive. Apple's iCloud is also end-to-end encrypted now. pCloud is another popular option. There are a number of choices for secure cloud storage these days.

Web search is a bit more difficult. DuckDuckGo is heavily integrated with Bing. Brave Search is hit-or-miss. Yahoo is just a front-end for Bing.

If you need live document collaboration, you're probably already in a setting where either Sharepoint or GSuite are mandated. If you're not, BitAI may be worth looking into.

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[–] persolb@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I am confused by why everyone thinks this is a big threat?

What stops the FOSS community from just continuing to allow ad blockers and other webpage editing features?

[–] fluffman86@lemmy.ml 73 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If the web is DRM'd in a way that requires chrome or windows then it could be difficult to bypass.

I remember the days of, "sorry, you must use Internet Explorer to use this website" when visiting my bank.

[–] Fredselfish@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago

I remember that government sites were the same way it was frustrating.

[–] unknowing8343@discuss.tchncs.de 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

DRM is already applied for certain content in websites such as Netflix, etc, and it makes it waaaay harder to bypass.

For example, Netflix (and the others) use DRM to block Linux computers from higher quality content. Why? I guess "hackers" and "think of the children". Truth is... content is already pirated from the second it gets released on any of these platforms... so they are not really fixing anything... I guess they really want you to use a tracking OS.

Imagine this kind of system but for an entire website. Big companies imposing their devices and software as the only way to access a website... which is really just HTML and Javascript files, entirely platform agnostic... but who cares? They are struggling for money so they are squeezing every little possibility.

[–] Dubious_Fart@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Amazon too, Went freaking nuts trying to figure out why I couldnt watch any of my shit above like 180p quality on amazon. until I found out they intentionally and maliciously degrade the quality on non-windows machines.

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[–] BitSound@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (8 children)

It's a big threat because once it's easy to block unapproved browsers, lots of people will do it. Yeah, there will always be a few weirdos like us that don't enable it, but just imagine when it's your bank, your insurance company, your government, and most every linked-to page on Lemmy. You'll be forced to use Chrome to interact with large parts of the internet then.

[–] IanAtCambio@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

netflix on linux firefox comes to mind. Just changing the useragent shows that it's not a technical problem.

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[–] haroldstork@lemm.ee 125 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Stop supporting those who intend to close it.

[–] philluminati@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

I just want remind everyone that Windows 11 requires your computer to ship with TPM2.0 enabled. This will complete the circuit meaning remote streaming websites can ensure you don’t have DRM on your machine.

TPM is a security token loaded into the firmware of the BIOS put in by the manufacturer to ensure you haven’t tampered with the operating system as shipped and controlled by them.

That will be nice for those websites.

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[–] Sentinian@lemmy.one 74 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sticking to FOSS and decentralized apps as much as possible. And using less invasive apps like Firefox over chrome. Be willing to jump shit when corporate throws in bullshit if you have to use something closed.

This is the only way to slow the spread of enshittification around the web. It will be less convenient for the end user, but ultimately it's the only way to stop big companies from fucking the web

[–] EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's not the only way tho. You can also get politically active about it, pressure your representatives into signing legislation in favor of the open web or even join a party or an organization and become the representative yourself and change it from the inside if you can.

Let's stop pretending individual actions are the only thing we can do to stop corporations, that's how they win. We need to act politically.

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[–] Mojojojo1993@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] tibi@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Alphabet needs to be broken up, same as Microsoft and Apple and Amazon. The consolidation of tech into a few giant corporations that have a tremendous amount of power and hold a monopoly/duopoly is doing a lot of harm.

[–] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But it probably won't be, if we're being honest.

That's why we need to take matters into our own hands and refuse to use their services and support FOSS with all our efforts. The government ain't gonna do shit, this is a DIY project to save the open internet.

[–] EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Activism exists for a reason. This isn't a DIY project, this is one that needs people to be more vocal and active so that governments do something about it.

The EU didn't start regulating apple & co because it woke up one day and felt like doing it, it did so because activists and people pressured them to do so or joined the world of politics to fix these issues.

The solution isn't to tackle it individually, that's how the corporations win, it's to get politically involved in whichever way we can and want to and tackle it as a group.

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[–] WeAreAllOne@lemm.ee 42 points 1 year ago

Support financially FOSS developers. And stop using corporate shit.

[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 31 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Start replacing your Google and Microsoft products and services with alternatives, bit by bit. Begin by switching to Firefox for the browser.

[–] heyfrancis@mastodon.social 7 points 1 year ago

@floofloof already using firefox to reply here from my mastodon to lemmy post. But definitely this is not enough.

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[–] Speiser0@feddit.de 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] minimar@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I've been running the entire internet in my browser for 20 years. If I ever close this window, the entire internet will explode.

[–] gon@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Our saviour, the last bastion.

[–] EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Hey could you press alt+F4 to make my internet faster please?

[–] ozoned@beehaw.org 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Use tech and services outside the big tech. Just Fedi over standard social. Use Peertube instead of Youtube.

Run Firefox.

Set up your own servers for yourself or start a community. Matrix, Mastodon, Lemmy, etc.

Run SearXNG as your search or help others by hosting.

If you can work of free and open source code that helps decentralize and give the power back to the people or create something new. Even if you can code, learning a project and helping others with it or helping create docs, etc.

Spread the word, but don't be annoying. Help less technical folks get decentralized.

It's very difficult and can be disheartening, but you don't have to cold turkey all of it. Each drip in the bucket helps until we're all united and become a tidal wave.

When all the power is centralized that's when those central players think they can do whatever they want.

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[–] Anonymouse@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There's a lot of good comments and suggestions, but the one that I'm not seeing is, "tell others".

Do you perform support for friends and family members? Explain why it's not in their best interest to use Chrome (and Google products in general), then ask and help them to install and use alternatives.

Have a laypersons response to why they should avoid Google for that person you're chatting with on the bus. Have a response ready to the awful, "but I don't have anything to hide" counterargument. As an aside, being the tin foil hat wearing guy/gal doesn't help the cause, explain it in plain language.

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[–] Ekis@beehaw.org 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think a good first step is to use free and open-source, non-profit alternatives (Firefox, Lemmy, Mastodon, Matrix, etc). The next is to help grow these technologies by contributing to their development. You can contribute by fixing bugs, translating text, or just donating money.

It will take a while for most people but try to DeGoogle, DeMicrosoft, and DeApple your life. It's quite liberating to not be tied to any of these company's DRM, policies or rules.

[–] Dubious_Fart@lemmy.ml 17 points 1 year ago

Fire a full Iowa class broadside of anti-monopoly legislation at google, and break it up into like 40 different companies.

and learn from the mistakes of ATT and NOT let them buy eachother back up to become an even bigger monster a few decades down the line.

[–] rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 16 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Create good content and post it on a free platform. Also give it a permissive license.

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[–] novibe@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I always wonder… can a truly open and free new internet be built? What would be the options in doing something like this? Maybe running on existing hardware (fibre, towers etc.) to a certain extent…

[–] TeddE@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I'm gonna argue 'no'.

Sure, we could do something clever with mesh network access points, or use tunneling (VPN) to build a pocket network on top of the existing Internet (TOR does something generally like this to create a more anonymous Internet). So if this were simply a matter of infrastructure, the tech is already there.

However, there are two problems. The biggest problem is adoption. What service can our little pocket network provide that would convince the lay person to tap into such a network? How are we going to advertise this to others? Even if we had our own copy of the current internet's infrastructure, we would have a cool webpage and spread by word of mouth and they would still have advertising dollars. Either we need a killer feature (that they can't simply replicate) or else they'll just win over the average person by the pillow talk of advertising bucks.

However there's also a philosophical problem. To create a open internet, it has to be available to everyone and our problem is that includes the asshole corporations we don't like. The fundamental nature of an internet is to be an interconnected network. By building our own separate network, we're fundamentally creating a walled garden network, not an open network - it's essentially defined by who we're keeping out.


But I'm not going to leave you without a solution. Here's the framework of what I think we need to do to fix the internet†:

  • We need to stop treating internet access like a consumer good. It needs to at least be treated as a utility, i.e. as something that has an inherent monopoly and doesn't self-regulate through the process of supply and demand - there is only one internet, no substitute exists. Heck, I'd argue that internet access should be a human right, a tool that fulfills a basic need for connection and communication.

  • We need to restore network neutrality, ISPs need to be content neutral, because if they can pick winners and losers, they'll make private deals and pick the winners that work best for them (often another branch of themselves). Since we lost network neutrality formally in the USA less than a decade ago, the internet still looks kinda mostly open, but it's eroding slowly.

  • We need to separate ownership of the physical network equipment from the ownership of the information services. Let's call these 'equipment ISPs' and 'general access ISPs'. The physical equipment should be owned and maintained by small companies, ideally with about 5-10 field technicians (the physical footprint that covers will vary based on the setting, dense urban settings will need more companies than sparse rural ones). These small equipment ISPs will not be allowed to negotiate directly with the consumer. The Access ISPs will be the ones that will lease an IP address to the general public as well as basic services such as DNS, and will compete on general service quality (up/down/latency speeds) that they'll have to negotiate with equipment ISPs to ensure quality of service, access ISPs can also sweeten the pot with things like offering an email address or bundling with media services(e.g. Netflix), etc. Equipment ISPs should be expected to have deals with multiple service ISPs, and be prevented from having exclusivity deals. Ultimately, the goal is to allow the general public to have options about which ISP they choose that's not fundamentally limited by where they are at, and the service ISPs are then on the hook to work with the equipment ISPs to fulfill those promises. Equipment ISPs are being given a small monopoly, but if they perform shoddy there'll be neighbors on all sides to shame them, also they'll have to work with at least one or two access ISPs to have any income at all.

  • Start choosing people over brands. The biggest crime corporations perform against humanity is to take credit for the work that is ultimately done by unique, talented people, then internally treat people as fungible assets that can be let go once they're not useful. lemmy.world is administrated by @ruud and a small team of admins (check your instance's sidebar for more details). If @ruud and lemmy.world split and he created a new, different Lemmy instance, I'd follow @ruud to the new insurance because he's proved his talent at weathering the problems of keeping a service up and running in the modern internet, whereas lemmy.world … is just a domain name. Google wasn't nearly as evil when it was still run day-to-day by Larry Page & Sergey Brin. Valve rakes in money, but Gabe Newell keeps the company priorities on actually being a good game platform. By contrast Steve Hoffman is hated partially because it often feels his job is to be the face of an otherwise obscure board of directors and he serves them in a way that he doesn't serve his employees, the moderators, or the users in general.

Overall, that's four things we can do. None of them are easy. One is on the global level, one on the national level, one on the state or local level, and one on the personal level.

†I live in the USA, so my perspective is through that lens, but I'm trying to offer ideas that should generalize.

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[–] selawdivad@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Use RSS. Find good independent blogs which meet your standards of good open web content and subscribe to them. Some places to look:

Also, start your own website/blog and link to other websites and blogs.

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[–] Im28xwa@lemdro.id 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just like everyone else said spread the word and de google, Microsoft, apple, etc... your life

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