I know I sure wouldn't want to go to war for the right of my landed lord and employer to exploit me.
this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024
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And the rest are not draft eligible I guess..
A story from personal experience: most of my friends from Ukraine wanted the war to end from the very beginning. There was one exception though - a real patriot who considered Zelensky a hero and the best president we've ever had, "Slava Ukraini", "Russians are orcs", you know the type.
What on Earth could make such a patriot change his mind? Just like me he doesn't live in Ukraine, and about a year ago Zelensky started trying hard to forcefully return people from abroad to use as a cannon fodder (thankfully, he failed)... That made him change his opinion very fast :)
And every war supporter out there is the same.. The war is OK, as long as it's not me who is forbidden to leave the country and gets kidnapped off a street to be used as a cannon fodder.
Funny how all the bravest Ukrainian patriots live in western countries now.
Don't worry, there are some in Ukraine as well.
My favourite one is currently "Oleksander Leonenko". He seems like a very patriotic guy from Odessa, self-identifies as a "language inspector", his T-shirt print roughly translates to the following: "talk to me in UKRAINIAN, I live in Ukraine and I DON'T UNDERSTAND Russian", etc.
He is bravely defending Ukraine against the invasion of orcs right now!
Ah, wait no, sorry my bad, actually he was detained by conscription officers on 13th (his boyfriend used some extremely weird words when describing the situation - "police illegally kidnapped a person"... Sounds like Russian propaganda if you ask me, this literally never happens in Ukraine, why do Ukrainian sources even share this obvious misinformation...), and on 19th he started asking for donations attempting to raise 500k uah = 12k usd in order to "save his life". Not sure what are those money for, but definitely not for a bribe.
Doubt he's "from" Odesa. The country side around Odesa spawns Ukrainian Nationalists like crazy.
The language wars have been the funniest shit to me since I was a kid in Odesa. Especially with what happened now, half the country goes on Duo Lingo overnight. Having grown up with this stupid shit, it was really funny to immigrate to the US and learn about like the slave trade and Jim Crow, and be like "damn Ukrainians really do love to complain".
Which is heavily ironic because my dad immediately went the other way and just became mildly racist about how "black people be demanding things". Shit's hilarious because it was always like "in 1876 we were forced to cut out our tongues with the Ems decree, and we couldn't celebrate the Taras Sevchenko centennial, and the evil Soviets made Russian the academic lingua franca". But the people who literally couldn't vote until 1964 and couldn't live in certain neighborhoods (even to this day) are entitled.
It's such a silly fucking position because of it's wishy washy historicity once you start to "collect evidence" and ultimately it's like if all complaints of oppression in America by black people were summed up with "they wouldn't let us talk jive".
It's also really funny because if Ukraine fulfills it's wildest EU/NATO/US FREEDOM dreams, in 10 years there will be less Russian and Ukranian than there is now. It will be like Iceland or Ireland where it's fully colonized by capitalist English due to the economic realities, and there will be a large language divide between the younger and older generations in the country. Ukrainians only cling tightly to their traditions for their traditional enemies. They'll gleefully shed all that for Westernization because it's "the way of the world". Sure they'll be the classic holdouts of Galicia, but practically the country will erase its own language and culture much like Iceland and other countries suffering from success under neocolonialism.
I mean, same is true for Russian patriots, no?
Russians abroad always talk about how great the motherland is, but nobody wants to move back there and not just because of the war. Or have you moved back to Russia yet?
Russian army has no problem recruiting volunteers to fight last I checked.
I mean if financially motivated is volunteer, then sure. They're getting paid real well lately.
What's stopping you from signing up for the foreign legion?
Value proposition for me isn't nearly as good considering my current income and potential foreign legion income. Would be a major loss. Putin's offer is way better if you consider the median salary in Russia and what the recruits are apparently being offered.
Military service in Russia does pay relative to median salary, no question about that. And I imagine volunteers end up being a far more effective fighting force than conscripts gang pressed into fighting which what the vast majority of the AFU is at this point.
Yup, so while those people technically volunteer, I wouldn't be so sure that they're volunteering out of their love for the motherland.
Still, I reckon the order of motivation goes: Patriots who fight for the cause > Well-paid volunteers > Conscripts. So you've got that right. Unfortunately, I doubt Ukraine can offer any contractors nearly as much as Russia does.
I do hope there's peace soon, but that's still entirely up to Putin and literally nobody else. I'm pretty sure Ukrainians would be ready to accept a white peace immediately at this point, without even regaining Crimea or anything, but Putin needs to have territorial gains beyond that.
It's as much up to the west as it is up to Russia. The Ukrainians are stuck fighting a proxy war for NATO here. It's also worth noting that Russia offered negotiations right before Ukraine started their ill fated Kursk offensive. It's pretty clear that neither the Ukrainian regime nor their western sponsors want to negotiate. The real tragedy in all this is that the war could've been over two months in when the negotiations in Astana were happening, but as we now know the west sabotaged them and convinced Ukraine to fight instead.
Are you referencing the North Korean voluntolds?
nah, I'm not gullible enough to believe stories about DPRK troops fighting in Russia
most of my friends from Ukraine wanted the war to end from the very beginning.
Nobody in Ukraine wanted this war to happen at all, but Russia went ahead and invaded them anyway, so they didn't have any real choice in the matter.
so they didn't have any real choice in the matter.
Choice? Let's talk about choice.
We don't have any choice not because of Putin's actions, but because of Zelensky's.
It's his regime that forbids people to leave the country.
It's his regime that kidnaps people off the streets and send them to the meatgrinder every day.
So what I'm gathering is, you rather would prefer to live under Russian rule?
Would I rather live under Russian rule than die? Yes of course.
And the majority of Ukrainians would prefer that as well. And despite what you're (probably) going to say, this is not just my opinion, this is a fact - Zelensky has to prevent people from leaving the country, he has to kidnap people off the streets just so that there is some cannon fodder to prolong the war. People either hide at home, or run from recruitment officers. People would rather die trying to escape the country than die on a battlefield fighting for Zelensky's regime. And even western medias are writing about it now, it's not taboo anymore. Zelensky tries real hard to convince people that Putin will exterminate Ukrainians. And yet, it's you (probably) who believes him, not the actual people who are supposedly about to be exterminated.
Seriously, just stop for a moment and think - if Russia is as evil as some try to portrait it - why is Zelensky having so much trouble with conscription? Why those stupid stupid Ukrainians don't go and fight for their survival against Putin who is going to destroy them? Maybe, just maybe, it's actually propaganda?
Okay, that's fair, Ukrainians never faced any serious discrimination under Russian rule. Unfortunately, as an Estonian, I know people whose families were affected by the forced deportations. By the way, how do you feel about Crimean Tatars or the Holodomor? Are those just anti-Russian propaganda too?
Unfortunately, as an Estonian, I know people whose families were affected by the forced deportations.
Oh well, I never really said that Russia is good, it has done lots of bad things, including to the Baltic states.
It's just that what Zelensky is doing to us is infinitely worse than what would probably be "under Russian rule".
By the way, how do you feel about Crimean Tatars or the Holodomor? Are those just anti-Russian propaganda too?
Holodomor - my great grandmother lived through it, I have little reason to doubt it or think that it is anti-Russian propaganda, it was terrible.
Crimean Tatars - I'm not very familiar with this topic so I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to (I guess it's the deportations?), but I'm sure it was also indeed a bad thing.
It’s just that what Zelensky is doing to us is infinitely worse than what would probably be “under Russian rule”.
I guess that's true, I'm not a fan of forced conscription and punishable desertion either. But if Russia wins, have you escaped forced conscription for good? Or will you be forced to fight in Putin's next conquest?
For now, you have a chance to build your own country still. Yes there's a lot of corruption and many, many other issues. Yes, the GDP per capita is pretty weak so Ukrainians are better off working abroad. But you still get a say in matters. Zelenskyy the comedian was elected because people were tired of the status quo. Has he fixed everything? Probably not, but he can still be replaced. In the modern day Russian empire you either vote for Putin or your vote doesn't count.
Crimean Tatars - I’m not very familiar with this topic so I’m not sure what exactly you’re referring to (I guess it’s the deportations?), but I’m sure it was also indeed a bad thing.
Yes, I meant the deportations. Russia deported every single one of them because they saw them as a geopolitical threat in Crimea. Here in the Baltics at least it was mostly people with land or nasty back-stabbing neighbours that were deported, not specific ethnic groups generally.
Anyway, I'm glad to see you're not a Russian shill, but an actual person with a real view to the entire issue. Obviously I support your right to not go to war against Russia. But I think just laying down arms isn't a solution either. Of course, I have a vested interest of my own. The more your brothers and sisters weaken Russia, the safer I am too.
But if Russia wins, have you escaped forced conscription for good? Or will you be forced to fight in Putin's next conquest?
Forced conscription in general - probably not.
What Zelensky's doing is not just forced conscription, it's literally kidnapping people off the streets, putting them into vans, often beating them in the process, keeping people in basements for multiple days, etc. and only then sending them to the meatgrinder. It's also has been described in western medias already btw, it's called "busification" if you want to have a read / watch what happens on the Ukrainian streets.
For now, you have a chance to build your own country still. Yes there's a lot of corruption and many, many other issues. Yes, the GDP per capita is pretty weak so Ukrainians are better off working abroad. But you still get a say in matters. Zelenskyy the comedian was elected because people were tired of the status quo. Has he fixed everything? Probably not, but he can still be replaced. In the modern day Russian empire you either vote for Putin or your vote doesn't count.
With Zelenaky in leadership nobody has any say. He is for a long time already an unelected usurper. I am not here to discuss whether voting in Russia is rigged or not, but at least people there can vote, can form political parties. Under Zelensky's regime you simply can't.
I'd love to see my country an indepent and free country, but the first pre-requirement for that is removing Zelensky from power (trialing him for crimes against humanity would be nice, but I know that it would never happen), and then seek a compromise with Russia.
He and his regime are threat #1 to us.
Obviously I support your right to not go to war against Russia.
Thank you.
But I think just laying down arms isn't a solution either.
People should be able to decide for themselves. Zelensky knows it's not on the table for his regime, because apart from a few nationalists (a lot of whom are already dead) nobody is going to fight for his regime.
Of course, I have a vested interest of my own. The more your brothers and sisters weaken Russia, the safer I am too.
This is not a nice thing to say, but at least you're honest about this in contrast to the hypocrites who say that they are "helping us".
With Zelenaky in leadership nobody has any say. He is for a long time already an unelected usurper.
Is this not usually the case during defensive wars?
When the war's over, if he doesn't step down and call an election, you guys are going to have to Gaddafi him in order to keep/restore your democracy I guess.
I am not here to discuss whether voting in Russia is rigged or not, but at least people there can vote, can form political parties.
I mean yeah, but when a certain candidate is able to get over 100% of the votes, you might ask whether or not the elections happening are actually worse than not happening - at least when they don't happen, you're not under any illusions.
This is not a nice thing to say, but at least you’re honest about this in contrast to the hypocrites who say that they are “helping us”.
It's not a nice thing to say, but this is me laying the cards on the table regarding what my position is. If Ukrainians want to fight for their freedom - that's super and you have my full support. If y'all DON'T really want to fight, but are being forced to - I don't think any normal person is happy about it, myself not included, but technically it's still beneficial to millions of non-Ukrainian Eastern Europeans every time a Russian tank is blown up or an actually competent high-level officer killed. I just feel like a lot of people are disingenuous when they say support Ukrainians. Yes, much of the western world supports you guys, but so many of us also have something to gain, even if this is not the main motivation for most people's support.
There's no such thing as peace talks in this war. Russia wants it all, any Ukrainian who live in Ukraine will be forced into assimilation and I doubt they all want that. Your friends are maybe spineless cowards I don't know
There's no such thing as peace talks in this war. Russia wants it all, any Ukrainian who live in Ukraine will be forced into assimilation and I doubt they all want that.
Why? What on Earth could be a reason for doubting people would prefer to live rather than die?? It's literally written right here, in the article, from a western media outlet, that people don't want to fight and avoid it AT ALL COST, people would rather die trying to escape the country to the freedom than die for Zelensky's regime, and there are people on the frontlines just because Zelensky's murderous regime is forcing people to be there, mostly by kidnapping (busifying) them... And you are still "doubting"...
Your friends are maybe spineless cowards I don't know
Yeah yeah yeah, I've heard that before... "If you don't want to fight for MY interests than YOU are a coward". Doesn't work on anyone with at least half a brain, sorry :)
I bet they do, but the only thing Russia is willing to accept is complete surrender.
That’s not really a negotiation, is it?
Russia was willing to negotiate two months into the war, when all they were asking for was for Ukraine to be neutral and to implement Minsk. Then the west sabotaged those negotiations, and now Russia won the war, so yeah they're going to dictate terms.
Oh it’s you again. 🙄
I’ll say it one more time: demanding complete surrender is not a negotiation.
Can’t wait to skip the copy/pasted “evidence” provided by your bot army.
I'll say it one more time: winner dictates the terms
Well then, I can’t wait for Ukraine to win.
I can't wait to win a million dollars and a pony.
This one we can agree on. Ponies are sick.
So you think ukraine winning is as good as a million dollars and a pony? Me too, thanks.
Nah, there are infinitely higher chances of winning a million dollars and a pony than Ukraine winning.