Asklemmy

People try to complicate it (not necessarily in this thread) because they want to provide excuses for supporting the genocidal bad guys or not fully opposing them.

The truth is simple, rhe ones actively carrying out a genocide are the bad guys.

The ones resisting it, even if you disagree with their other beliefs/methods, are currently fighting for the good cause, to stop the genocide of their people.

As for

but from what I know Israel was attacked and is responding and trying to get their hostages back.

History didn't start on oct-7, though the media would love people to think so.

Gaza has been an open air prison living under an apartheid state for decades.

Ignoring that the entire strip is practically Israeli hostages, Israel has had far more Palestinian hostages held in Israeli prisons long before oct-7. A major reasoning for the Al-aqsa flood and taking of hostages was to trade those hostages for their own back.

They are the israeli and Palestinians civilians that just want peace. The majority of the people in these 2 countries just want peace. A year+ of war is not ez or good for anything.

The volunteers that risk going to do stuff in either side. It’s crazy out there

Hamas are, I think, a lesser bad guy to Israel's big bad. Hamas are an inevitable consequence of a settler neighnour like Israel.. the conflict is very old. Perhaps really the bad guy was Britain & the UN back in the 40s, who carved up Mandatory Palestine to create Israel & Palestine. You can trace it farther back to the origins of Zionism, too, in the late 19th century, and again British Zionists allowing settlers into Mandatory Palestine in the 20s.

I'd suggest reading over the history yourself and making up your own mind. The Wikipedia article is a good starting point imo. It's a long and complex conflict with no clear "good" or "bad" side.

What I think personally is that Israel was founded by colonist settlers, supported by imperial western powers. The Arab locals have resisted as best they could but been repeatedly defeated, while Israel's western support has allowed it to grow and grow. They have expanded far beyond the original borders by settling and stealing land from the Palestinians. Hamas is the most recent military faction in opposition, and it certainly has done terrible things... But a terrorist insurgency is an inevitable consequence of a settler nation attempting to take over a much less powerful neighbour. If it wasn't Hamas, it would be another group.

Maybe if Hamas are truly wiped out, we'll get lucky and the next one will be slightly less insane... But I doubt it. And you can bet Israel will use whoever they are as an excuse to continue their brutal occupation and wage yet more war in the region, while the rest of the world looks on.

If you ignore the 80 years of oppression that preceded the Hamas attacks on Israel last year, the Israeli response has been one of genocidal intent. From indiscriminate bombings to cutting off supplies of food, water and other aid. They have directly killed at least 40k people, and likely many more from starvation and preventable diseases.

This could have been easily avoided by a simple prisoner swap. Israel has thousands of Palestinians detained without charge, and Hamas wanted to free them.

I mean the whole reason why you are confused is that this is the most complex conflict in the world and here (like everywhere else) you are going to get responses in both directions. I suggest you read what each side has to say for itself: for unconditional pro-Israeli propaganda I suggest https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/ and for unconditional pro-Palestinian propaganda I suggest https://mondoweiss.net/ – read both of these and decide for yourself what arguments on both sides you believe more.

I do not think there are any truly good guys in the conflict; but I do think that Israel is worse and tend to side with the Palestinians. This is mainly because Israel is the side with vastly more power and I think it's up to the powerful, the oppressor, to try to treat the people they have power over with dignity and try to give up the power they have.

Of course, even that argument of mine has a counter-argument! You can (and should!) read it here: https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2016/07/the-parameters-of-discussion-michael.html

The one who is colonizing the other. When Nate Turner killed children in his revolt it didn't make the slaves the bad guys and the slave owner the good guy. In the Indian Rebellion of 1857, resistance promised safety to British including kids and women but ended up attacking them, it didn't make the British empire the good guy and the Indian the bad guys

I don't have any inherent support either side, and there's too much history along with bias, propaganda, and outright misinformation to make a determination of who the "good guys" are, if anyone.

However, in such cases I will support the underdog on the principle that you don't really want one side to have too much power over the other. That's how we end up with things like ethnic cleansing and genocide. If Palestine (and Lebanon) had powerful militaries, you wouldn't be seeing the mass devastation and huge loss of civilian lives. I'd prefer to see the sides more balanced so that they can keep each other in check.

Another angle to consider is that I consider the state of Israel to be actively harmful to Americans on the basis of:

• using our tax dollars to commit mass murder against civilians, including a staggering death toll for children

• infiltrating our government, interfering with our elections, and having an undue level of influence on American policy

• corollary to the preceding point: they support getting Trump back into the White House

• training American law enforcement, who then use their oppressive tactics on Americans

• similarly, technology they develop for surveillance and other means of control being used on Americans

• directly attacking our First Amendment rights

Bottom line is I'd say everyone sucks, but in different ways. But I am anti-Israel on the basis of them being way out of control (and without anyone to keep them in check) and due to the threat they pose to the American public.

It's a terrorist organization vs terrorist state. The only good guys are the civilians dying on both sides.

Where are you getting news, and how often?

Just like everywhere else, the bad guys are the leaders killing people and creating hate to keep themselves in power, and the good guys are the people who are just trying to live their lives in dignity anr freedom. Both sides have both. You could make an argument that the leaders on one side arr worse because they have more deadly firepower at their disposal, but that seems like a moot point to me. The hate is the problem and the people who need it to stay in power are the bad guys.

Well obviously it's the Western powers that gave a bunch of displaced Jews land after WWII, despite no legitimate claim to the area, and then proceeded to keep meddling in Middle Eastern affairs so they could get cheap oil. And the biggest of those Western powers directly gives taxpayer money to war profiteers so there's a direct financial incentive to keep the genocide going.

Those are the goodest guys.

There are no good guys in that conflict. Only innocent civilians.

War rarely decides who's right, just who's left.