Meanwhile a Microsoft employee on how to prevent such an issue under Linux: https://www.phoronix.com/news/systemd-Auto-Boot-Assessment
this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2024
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I don't know enough about Windows 10/11, but aren't they supposed to boot into a menu thet allows you to pick the last known good configuration before it evens boots to the gui?
The problem is with a specific file on the disk, not a misconfiguration
It's been a while since I had such a massive problem under Windows but the last time you could try to restore one of the last backups and usually that failed because Windows restore points are/were crap.
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a Microsoft employee
You're talking about good ol' Lenny like he isn't the author of the most used init and utility system as well as PulseAudio.
I know who that is and he's also a Microsoft employee these days which makes this a funny sequence of statements:
"EU bad because they made us open up Windows to 3rd party anti-virus vendors. Oh, btw, the fully open Linux operating system can cope with such a problem if properly configured. Here's the documentation to make that configuration."
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Is this even relevant? Wasn't it a kernel driver module?
It's a third party kernel module, which Microsoft would love to be able to block, but legally can't. It's technically possible to write a virus scanner that runs in user space instead of the kernel, but it's easier to make sure everything gets scanned if it's in the kernel.
even when it was the bears I knew it was regulation and taxes.
why do communists hate free market and liberty?
won't someone think of the corporations!?
they feed you, shit lord... show some respect for your betters!
Oh FFS. I love this era where companies will not accept the blame due to "liability", even when they are explicitly to blame.
We all hate Microsoft for turning Windows into an ad platform but they aren't wrong.
They are legally required to give Crowdstrike or anyone complete low level access to the OS. They are legally required to let Crowdstrike crash your computer. Because anything else means Microsoft is in control and not the software you installed.
It's no different than Linux in that way. If you install a buggy device driver on Linux, that's your/the driver's fault, not Linux.
I actually agree, I own my computer / OS and I should be able to do what you're saying (install and break things). But Microsoft is a trillion dollar multi national corporation and I am certainly going to give them grief about this because I owe them less than nothing, let alone any good will.
You are going to give grief to Microsoft for allowing what you want?
???
That doesn't make any sense. How does arguing against your position do anything but harm it?
Maybe just give them grief over the myriad negative things they do that don't counter your position?
You are not wrong, but people don't want to hear it. Do we want to retain control over what goes into kernel space or not? If so, we have to accept that whatever we stuff in there can crash the entire thing. That's why we have stuff like driver signatures. Which Crowdstrike apparently bypassed with a technical loophole from how I understand it.
They are legally required to let Crowdstrike crash your computer.
I call Bullshit.
If it had been Windows NT 3.5, there would have been no bluescreens around the world. It would have stopped the buggy software, given a message accordingly, and continued it's job. That Windows was not stupid enough to crash itself just because of a null pointer in another software.
Now you tell me that Windows NT 3.5 is illegal?
I ran 3.5. Yes, a network driver crash would blue screen NT3.5. Graphics were in user space in 3.5 so a video driver couldn't take NT 3.5 down but networking was in the kernel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_kernel
a network driver crash would blue screen NT3.5.
OK, and... Were the legally required to make it crash?
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You could absolutely install software on Windows 3.5 that would crash the system.
The thing is, Microsoft's virus-scanning API shouldn't be able to BSOD anything, no matter what third-party software makes calls to it, or the nature of those calls. They should have implemented some kind of error handler for when the calls are malformed.
So this is really a case of both Crowdstrike and Microsoft fucking up. Crowdstrike shoulders most of the blame, of course, but Microsoft really needs to harden their API to appropriately catch errors, or this will happen again.
I don't believe there was any specific API in use here, for virus scanning or not. I suppose maybe the device driver API? I am not a kernel developer so I don't know if that's the right term for it.
Crowdstrike's driver was loaded at boot and caused a null pointer dereference error, inside the kernel. In userspace, when this happens, the kernel is there to catch it so only the application that caused it crashes. In kernelspace, you get a BSOD because there's really nothing else to do.
I stand corrected. For some reason, I was thinking they used the actual Windows Defender API, which can be called programmatically from third-party applications, but you're correct, it was a driver loaded at boot. Microsoft isn't at all at fault, here.
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Yeah I saw the article that says they're legally required but until I can actually read that document where it says "thou shall give everyone ring-0" access I'm gonna call it bullshit.
If it's not ring 0, it's not full access. They are legally required to give full access.
We all hate Microsoft for turning Windows into an ad platform but they aren't wrong.
Sorry, how is that related to the stability of the kernel?
I explained in my second sentence.
"They are legally required to give Crowdstrike or anyone low level access to the OS."
If you install a buggy driver into Linux and it crashes, that's not a problem with the Linux kernel.
https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/linux-kernel-panic
I fully agree with you on that front, but ads have nothing to do with kernel access, so how is that relevant to their legal requirements?
I was explaining why everyone hates on Microsoft but the Crowdstrike crash had nothing to do with the reasons people hate MS.
Gotcha.
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Fuck Microsoft and fuck Windows.
But if you inject hacky bullshit third party code into someone's OS that breaks things, it's not the OS's fault.
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This whole thing just exposes that people getting paid big bucks for this shit, aint really that smart or planning for anything, they are just collecting rent until something blows up lol
They just pay so when it goes sideways they can hold up their hands and point out a reputable supplier was used and now it's not their problem or blemish on their career.
Yes, an anarchist guy pointed this out to me that in our world responsibility can be delegated via contract while this doesn't make any sense. The responsible person should still be responsible, only the specific action would be choosing those to whom to delegate the obligation for which they are responsible.
Like in Nazi Germany and other fascist states they like to emotionally make only the leaders responsible, while with corps they like to only make the last company in chain responsible.
In fact all chain is responsible. Responsibility is fully contagious.
If this was like this in all laws, we'd have a much better world.
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The document that outlines the agreement between Microsoft and the European Commission is available as a Doc file on Microsoft's website.
...which seems to be inaccessible. I highly doubt this document specifically said "giv'em ring-0 access", this is just MS trying to deflect blame and cash it at the same time.
The document states that Microsoft is obligated to make available its APIs in its Windows Client and Server operating systems that are used by its security products to third-party security software makers.
The document does not, however say those APIs have to exist. Microsoft could eliminate them for its own security products and then there would be no issue.
I'm pretty sure that if Microsoft provided a decent way to do what Crowdstrike does, most companies would opt for that.
So... Sucks to suck I guess.
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Personally, I don't see the issue. Microsoft shouldn't be responsible for when a third party creates a buggy kernel module.
And when you, as a company, decide to effectively install a low-level rootkit on all your machines in hopes that it will protect you against whatever, you accept the potential side effects. Last week, those side effects occurred.
MS gives them access, so they're responsible.
I disagree. As someone else in this thread said: if you compile a buggy Linux driver that crashes the system, it's still the fault of the driver.
I'm not exempting Crowdstrike and I'm not sure the comparison holds: linux is a kernel, mot a corporation.
Try Ubuntu or RedHat, would they be liable?
My answer might surprise you, but no. Your source code, your binary, your responsibility. Not that of the platform, the compiler, or the company that supplies it.
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I bet you love your locked down iPhone too
Hard to say yet, if Microsoft is responsible or not. The thing is they certified it, as a stable and tested driver. But it isn't just a driver, but an interpreter/loader that loads code at runtime and executes it. In kernel mode. If Microsoft knew this they're definitely responsible for certifying it, but maybe crowdstrike hid this behavior until it was deployed to the customers.
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