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If I don't care what pronouns are used, can I still be an ally? (lemmy.world)

submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by notanaltaccount@lemmy.world to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.ca

NSFW 43 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Trigger warning: this could be upsetting

Shortly after graduating school, I hung out with someone I met once before and was raped and have some trauma in my background. It was aquaintance rape I guess? I barely knew him. There's other bad stuff that's happened that's also horrifying, some of it worse than that.

I am biologically male and effeminate, but don't want to have a female body. I don't really feel like anything and sort of don't care what people call me. I am slightly asexual just from trauma and don't really feel like I exist in a way. It wouldn't surprise me if I'm not around in another decade.

I support trans people, but feel like putting he/him next to my name sort of implies a more clear identity than I have or implies I care about how people label me. I don't. I sort of barely exist and don't like to imply otherwise. People can call me anything, I don't care. I don't see myself as female or a they or it. I don't see myself as anything.

I almost want to go like (he/him/*) but I am afraid this would be disrespectful.

I truthfully would like to be (he/him/🫥/💀) which would obviously be seen as demeaning. I feel like anything other than normal parantheticals opens the door to a distracting conversation that I don't want professionally and often don't want personally. And I feel like nothing after my name is dog-whistle for trans-people-are-invalid.

(I don't care about pronouns but support trans people) also seems disrespectful and sort of like "i want attention" and I really don't.

I wish I could support trans people without having to label myself or my body or even bring up these topics. Is there a way to do that? There probably isn't.

all 45 comments

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[–] NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth 29 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I see a lot of obvious signs that you are thinking about killing yourself that everyone seems to be ignoring.

Remember that you are valid no matter what and that in America you can dial 988 anytime you need to talk to someone

[+] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world -9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

988 regularly sends people to lock people up in hospitals resulting in HUGE medical bills that financially wreck people.

I am not planning on doing anything. Please provide your government trap number to someone less naive.

[–] NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Well, when I called them, I got to talk to a nice lady who helped talk me out of a panic attack so bad I almost went to the er for sedation.

So YMMV but it worked better than I ever thought just talking to someone could so I am going to continue to encourage people to use it, however I will caution them about the consequences you warn of.

Just to be 100% clear though, they actively talked me down from when I was about to check myself into a hospital, so I had a 100% different experience than you are talking about.

Like a complete 180 of what you warn of.

I can’t think of a reason you would want to lie about that though, it would benefit no one, so I do believe that it is a possibility.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

If you say you're considering going to a hospital they will talk you out of it

If you say you don't want involuntary treatment, they'll get the battering ram

They do not always force everyone into involuntary treatment but they get caller IDs and can send police and force people to be locked up, with devestating financial consequences. A small weekend crisis can decend into long term financial instability or even homelessness if someone calls 988. Involuntary care is always horribly expensive.

A hospital stay of 25,000, which would not be an abnormal cost for a month long involuntary stay, can be taken from you by a collections company by seizing a car you use to get to work and deducting money directly from your paycheck. The financial hell can last years.

If the mental health industry really "cared" they wouldn't engage in brutal exploitation like that. Upset about the lack of a car and the collections company taking your wages and even more in an abyss? If you complain to 988, they'll lock you up again and increase the debt more, then let you out on new drugs to go stay at a shelter if you've lost your housing while continuing their collection practices. They fundamentally don't care and are a den of vipers that selectively target their prey for maximum resource extraction.

Although 988 and the involuntary hospitals and personelle and collections companies are not one monolith, they are all heads of the same hydra that emerges when a person is at their weakest, looking for its next meal.

They pretend mental health is the priority and everything else must come second, ignoring the reality that extreme financial distress always results in misery, then cause long-term financial distress by exploiting the legal and regulatory environment to charge exorbanant prices when someone can't refuse treatment. They are not stupid and know the horrific impact of severe financial distress, which they cause, hurts the downtrodden. They continue to operate this way because money has corrupted them. Often the medications they prescribe, such as SSRIs, do not even have statistically meaningful improvement outcomes as compared to a sugar pill as measured by metastudies. They know this, and also know a patient held captive will say anything, including a sugar pill is helping, to stop being held captive by a corrupt and deranged greedy industry.

Like a well-dressed vampire inviting you over for supper, they always seem nice until you are powerless, and if they don't end up extracting as many resources as possible from you they know you'll go on to be their cheerleader to bring in the next round of prey, and so occasionally they don't exploit select people to keep up appearances.

Congratulations on being their cheerleader.

(Also, I am not a scientologist, I believe the earth is round, global warming is real, and that some medications, including psychiatric medications, have statistically meaningful impacts to justify usage. I believe in the scientific method. But fuck the mental health industry and the vile scum of the industry who exploit those at their weakest and call the exploitation healing.)

[–] boogetyboo@aussie.zone 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You can think/have experienced all of that and still not be a fuckwit to the person trying to help you.

You can't mention the fact that you don't want to exist and don't expect to be here in a few years, and not expect compassionate people to respond with concern and advice.

Consider /insufferablecunt as your new pronoun.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

When did I say I didn't want to exist? I never said that.

In former years, they used to lobotomize difficult people, destroying neural connectiins so they would be agreeable and stupid.

They financially do the same thing to people these days. "Oh just call this number, oh they are just here to help!"

Would you expect me to respond meekly to someone suggesting a lobotomy? No? Then why are you suggesting I respond meekly to someone suggesting I do something that could cost me $25,000 and lead to homelessness?

Most of the people who get locked up give up on financial stability and just go on SSI because it's pointless to try to have financial security after that. (The mental industry loves that because then they have a permanent meal, like a vampire who keeps it's captive alive with free blood transfusions from the government.) You are obviously in that industry or know someone who is or you wouldn't respond with such irrational deference to what is in fact extreme financial exploitation of the vulnerable.

[–] Coskii@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

These two things are ~~entirely~~ mostly unrelated. People who do not want to be misgendered for whatever reason use them to avoid being misgendered as often as possible. To be inclusive some allies include theirs also, it shows some level of support and helps normalize displaying pronouns. You can still support others without putting your own pronouns promenantly out there for everyone to see.

Take me for instance. I identify agenderly but use he/him pronouns mostly becuase that's how I was born and look. I, much like you, don't care about how I'm pronouned, and honestly I prefer however I'm presenting at the time. In life it doesn't change much. But in games it can vary.

My own opinion on pronouns being that they exist to ease conversation, and so long as they do that, I have no problem using anyone's preferred selection. Up until someone decides their pronouns are so unique that it's not really a pronoun anymore, it's more like a second name. That's when I get a bit petty and will generally avoid talking about whoever that is at all.

[–] southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 8 points 4 months ago

My homie, you can be an ally the same way us cishetero folks can. You just support trans folks however and whenever you can. How you choose to self label is 100% independent of that, even when that self label is no label at all.

Just don't use the pronoun labeling at all, you'll be fine. I don't think I've run across anything where you're required to have it. There might be, but I haven't run across it.

Your self, your sense of identity is just as valid as anyone else's.

[–] NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I see a lot of obvious signs that you are thinking about killing yourself that everyone seems to be ignoring.

Remember that you are valid no matter what and that in America you can dial 988 anytime you need to talk to someone

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world -3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

988 is a great way to line the pockets of the medical establishment, get labeled with a diagnosis to become a second class citizen, and get a medical bill for tens of thousands of dollars. The only person that line benefits are big pharma and the medical industrial complex. You are either naive or cruel as to the financial implications of what you suggest. Involuntary stays, and 988 regularly results in those for unweary callers, are enormously expensive and you don't have an option as to whether accept the treatment and bill once they come to haul you away.

[–] NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth 2 points 4 months ago

Like I told the other commenter, my experience is a 180 flip of what you say, so I am going to continue to recommend it, but I will add on a warning of the possibilities you speak of.

[–] streetfestival@lemmy.ca 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

You can be a trans ally regardless of how you identify gender-wise or how you feel about sharing your preferred pronouns to others.

There's more than one way to be trans. But the mainstream centres a certain trans experience/narrative above all others that includes the gender binary and presuming everyone has enough privilege, safety, and support that they can broadcast their pronouns widely without risk of discrimination, job loss, etc. A lot of trans people do not enjoy that level of freedom of expression - temporarily while in transition or migrating to safer place, or permanently. It's not uncommon to meet trans people who are critical of 'pronoun culture', which can refer to institutions doing the bare minimum to present a picture of inclusivity while failing to acknowledge current barriers.

I identify differently in different contexts, because disclosing my preferred pronouns is my right and I'm not going to do it to the detriment of my safety. Other people and institutions have to earn that trust first. So I generally don't broadcast pronouns, and they aren't that important to me. But when I see other people using them, I appreciate the roadmap for how they'd like me to interact with them.

I get a bit of a sense you might not yet have found an identity that really resonates with you. For me, feeling disconnected from my core sense of gender and feeling dissatisfied with life are highly associated.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

When you mention identity, I don't feel gender fluid. I am just very gay and disconnected from everything and I feel like defining my pronouns may imply a level of caring about labels that doesn't represent my general indifference.

[–] Mothra@mander.xyz 7 points 4 months ago

There are many reasons why people may not disclose their pronouns and I wouldn't presume that means taking a stance against trans or anyone.

If today I saw emojis listed as someone's pronouns, my first thought would be that they're trolling or taking it as a joke though.

Just be yourself, show your support in any way that makes you feel comfortable and if anyone asks why you don't disclose yours you can just say pretty much what you've just said. I think it's understandable enough.

[–] lvxferre@mander.xyz 6 points 4 months ago

[Reader, beware: take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm not trans, I just happen to have a few trans friends here and there.]

I think that people in general confuse the symbols too much with what they represent. Third person pronouns in English might symbolise your gender identity, but they aren't the identity itself; first and foremost, you're still you, regardless of those words. Just pick whatever you feel more comfortable with - be it "he/him", "any", or any other choice.

And remember that your choice of pronouns doesn't dictate who you are. Even if you see yourself as effeminate, and even if you have an unclear identity, and go for he/him, there's no contradiction. Same deal if you pick "any" and see yourself as a man.

And I feel like a lot of trans people have the same identity struggles as you do, or at least know someone in the same situation. Based on that I don't think that the ones in good faith would bat an eye towards something like "he/him/any".

[–] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago

Two things:

You're an ally if you respect other peoples' gender identity and support their rights.
Whatever you choose for yourself isn't disrespectful to anyone else. The whole point is to be able to be your true self, whatever that is. And it's okay if you don't know: pick whatever you're comfortable with (or least uncomfortable with) today.

[–] Bougie_Birdie@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Hey, I just want to say that I have a similarly tragic backstory, and I see you. It's never easy, but it does get easier.

If you really don't care about pronouns but want to signal that you realize they're important to people, why not try he/they on for size? People will probably default to "he" which you're accustomed to, but if someone uses "they" would you really notice?

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think "they" is probably a specific gender identity and using that would be like coming out as not male, but i do feel male. I dont think it would be accurate.

[–] Bougie_Birdie@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Well the good news is that "they" is no gender identity I've ever heard of. It's the third-person pronoun to be used when gender either doesn't matter or is unknown. For example, "I got an email from a new client, I wonder what they want?"

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that pronouns themselves aren't genders. You should list whichever pronouns you're comfortable being used for yourself, and the presence or absence of them from your profile says nothing about your personal beliefs.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I didnt know that. I thought when people said they/them it meant gender fluid and was a different type of identity.

[–] Gigagoblin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago

my ex-wife said, after a lot of introspection, that she's definitely a cis woman, but wants to go by them as well :3 it's often used by folks who feel there's a void where their gender should be, but there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't use it, too!

[–] potate@lemmy.ca 3 points 4 months ago

Yep - I identify as male, but I put he/they in my email signature because I a) want to signal active support for the trans community and b) don't really think about my own gender much and kind of like de-gendering my language wherever possible.

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm an ally, but I don't put my pronouns in any profile. I let people figure it out for themselves. Pronouns are only useful for talking about me anyways. If they get it wrong, it's not really a big deal, and if it might cause confusion, I'll correct them.

To the content of your post though, I sincerely hope that you are able to access some therapy.

[+] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm sorry to have infuriated you, and I sympathize with your experiences.

I know for a fact that your experience is not normal, at least where I live, and I think your hatred of all mental health professionals around the world is unwarranted. I know I won't be the person to change your mind though.

The reason I suggested it wasn't "negative emotions" or being an "unhappy worker", but the part of your original post that (it seems you've edited out) suggested potential suicidal ideation.

There are some free or low cost talk therapy services, and not all of them will be "officially approved" by your government, which I think would be a selling point in your case. If you ever need help and don't know where to turn, some of those might be of assistance. And I haven't heard of any of them demanding your medical records before offering to help. I'm sure some of them are even anonymous.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

OMG NO

How would you know if my hatred of the mental health industry is valid? You haven't lived my life or endured the hell I endured. They are ALL vile.

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I didn't discount your personal experiences or suggest that your feelings are invalid.

What I said was that I think it's unwarranted to extend your hatred to an entire group of people around the entire world (many of whom seek out the profession specifically out of a desire to help people) because of your experiences.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 0 points 4 months ago

You're wrong. It is entirely valid for me to think this.

The entire profession is different labels for the same polluted over-priced tainted water, and even if people didn't enter the profession to become controlling charlitans and grifters, the rules of the profession ensure that transmogrification happens sooner or later.

[–] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Comrade, the pronouns you are looking for are any/all. I know lots of nonbinary people who have that listed as their pronouns. Everyone I know understands those pronouns represent a flexible and nonspecific attitude towards one's own gender, and they aren't a dogwhistle or anything.

Also if you want to understand your gender identity better I know some queer discord servers that help questioning people. And comrade, it is plain to see you are questioning so hard you might as well be dressed as the Riddler.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I am not. I have never wanted boobs, worn lipstick, wanted hips. I just see myself as really gay and I feel like he/him implies a sort of normal dude ethos that i am not. If i could change, I'd be taller and have bigger shoulders. I just like dudes. I am posting on lemmy, why would I lie?

I havent lied at all on here... except for the username. This is clearly an alt account... 🫣

[–] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

That's an awfully binary way of looking at things. You're talking as though boobs and lipstick, or he/him, are the only two options. Don't you know there are thousands of tall, broad-shouldered, unfeminine genders? You could have xe/xim if you wanted. I don't mean to imply that you do, but you're clearly unhappy with he/him in some way. You shouldn't assume you only have two choices. You've got billions of choices.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago

Alright.

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I also feel similar. I don't think I really exist, like I'm just some omniscient narrator. I don't have much attachment to my gender either because of that, and I'm asexual. I tried to participate more in activities to make that feeling go away, but it only got stronger as the years pass by.

To cope with that, I try not to think about labels too much. Go for what you truly feel. I'm cis, but would like to get a nullification surgery one day. What the LGBT is about, is making you feel comfortable, making you feel like your true self, no matter how weird or unexplainable it is.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

What is nullification surgery?

I definitely still like dudes too much to do anything like that, without knowing what it is. I am mostly asexual via alienation.

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

It's a type of surgery to remove most primary sexual traits (genitals). You can choose what you would like to remove tho. If you like how you look, then it's probably not for you.

Not to armchair diagnose you, but asexuality via alienation reminds me of schizoid personality disorder, as seen by the Wikipedia description.

Edit: mixed a few things in the definistion

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I think it's easy to mistake trauma for personality. I used to be vivacious. The only treatments for trauma involve interaction with the mental health industry. I am not willing to do that after terrible previous experiences.

I wouldn't want nullification surgery. I used to be very sexual and am mostly not due to trauma, not because of feeling like an inherent asexual or genderless person.

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Oh in that case, it's probably not that. (Edit: in any case, can't armchair diagnose someone lmao)

(Edit 2: I also forgot that this disorder is developed as well. For example, take this person on reddit)

I understand your reluctance to go to the mental health industry for help. Some people there tend to lack empathy, which is weird considering the domain lol.

In any case, I find this guide to be useful on the asexuality and trauma.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I appreciate the gesture, but after my terrible mental health industry experiences, I pass on all of it, even in anonymous reading format.

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago

Oh it's not a guide for how to heal from trauma, if that's what you meant! It's about using the term if you think it stems from trauma.

[–] shneancy@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago

i've seen people use "any/all", maybe that?

[–] pyre@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

sounds like "any/all" is the way to go for you.

[–] notanaltaccount@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I feel like any and all would imply a fluidity more than feelings of disconnectedness, as though I identify as multiple genders, and I don't. I just mostly don't care and barely feel like a person. I don't wear dresses or want to. When I say i'm effeminate, i just mean my voice and mannerisms don't sound masculine. Perhaps I should actually use (he/him) but I feel like that implies typical male dude and that doesn't really accurately describe me.

[–] pyre@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago

you're way overthinking this. pronouns are about pronouns. it's not that complicated. any/all means you don't care what people say. he/him means you want masculine pronouns. he/they (he/them) means you prefer masculine but are fine with they.

just put whatever you prefer. no one cares what you are; people who look at these are only concerned with what you prefer to be called in third person. that's it.