The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

you think the right recourse is to invade that country and attempt to annex it into your empire?

That's not what the war is about. https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

However, if you don't trust a renowned political scientist like Mearsheimer, RAND published a whole study titled "Extending Russia" that explains in detail why the US wanted to provoke a conflict in Ukraine https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html

Killing hundreds of thousands in a war of attrition?

The war could've been over within a month, but the west sabotaged negotiations. Pretty clear who wants this war to keep going. The war could've been avoided entirely if the west didn't insist on NATO expansion and didn't overthrow the government in Ukraine.

[+] mormund@feddit.org -6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

That is a nice big quote you got there. But it doesn't say anything about right-wing governments, coups or anything the like. And I said, for the sake of the argument I'll pretend with you it is true.

Of course, surrendering is a great defensive strategy. I'm sure WW2 would have been a whole lot shorter if Stalin just capitulated right away. But I've got another brain tickler for you. The aggressor can end a war immediately, by not even starting it :)

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's amazing how people just keep regurgitating these talking points. It's just so incredibly shallow and demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the situation. There is no comparison with WW2 here. In fact, the best comparison to make would be Yugoslavia where NATO recognized separatist regions as being independent, and then had them invite NATO to invade and destroy Yugoslavia. That's the actual model that Russia is using in Ukraine.

[–] mormund@feddit.org -4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

So you are saying that Russia recognized separatist regions in Ukraine as a front to ultimately destroy Ukraine? And it is ok because NATO does the same?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No, I'm saying that recognizing the separatists regions and then accepting their request for help was the common element. It's quite clear that Russia was not interested in destroying Ukraine as illustrated by the fact that Russia tried to make Minsk agreements for for whole eight years. I don't know why you feel the need to continue making blatantly dishonest statements here. You're not fooling anybody.

[–] mormund@feddit.org -5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Ah, well it was surprising you mention that other part in your comparison so vividly. And I'm not sure where I stated anything at all, aside from the fallacy of what-about-ism in regards to NATO and Russia. The rest you interpreted yourself.

What I don't understand is why "leftists" like you feel the need to vocally support an oligarch and dictator, instead of being able to say that the war in Ukraine is a pointless waste of human lives for which Putin is directly responsible as the aggressor.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Talking about whataboutism is just a way to paper over hypocrisy. It's not a real argument. Then you proceeded to make it crystal clear that you are indeed a hypocrite.

What I don’t understand is why “leftists” like you feel the need to vocally support an oligarch and dictator, instead of being able to say that the war in Ukraine is a pointless waste of human lives for which Putin is directly responsible as the aggressor.

Nice straw man there buddy, cause nowhere did I vocally support anything. What you're being told is that what Russia is doing is no different from what the west has been doing, and that the west is just as responsible for starting and continuing this conflict. Apparently that's just too hard a concept for you to comprehend.

The most incredible part is that multiple people in this very thread tried to explain the situation to you, and you just ignore the facts and continue regurgitating the talking points you've memorized. The sheer anti-intellectualism on display is stunning.

[–] mormund@feddit.org -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Hypocrisy would be if I blindly excused anything NATO did or held them to a different standard. Which, you may recall, I never did.

What you're being told is that what Russia is doing is no different from what the west has been doing

Okay so what Russia is doing is the same as NATO, which is bad because what NATO does is bad? Or is it justified and NATO is also justified in their actions?

And yes I would claim you vocally support Putin and Russia, because you seem incapable of critique of a war that he is directly responsible for. And note that I'm not even claiming sole responsibility in that sentence.

And if you are wondering, I can certainly offer some critique of NATO and the US.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, you literally did that with the example of Yugoslavia. At leat lie about something that you haven't done in this very thread.

Meanwhile, the fact that you see rational analysis for the reasons for the war as vocal support for Putin shows just how utterly intellectually impoverished you are.

[–] mormund@feddit.org -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Please enlighten me how I defended anyone's actions in Yugoslavia or even mentioned anything about that conflict at all.

Rational analysis, where you are incapable of addressing any wrong doing of the one person that declared an offensive war? Please attack me personally instead of acknowledging that maybe it is not so good to march into your neighbors territory and bomb their cities. But you do you. I'm sure you have your reasons.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Oh my bad, it was ristoril_zip that was justifying NATO in Yugoslavia, you just kept talking about whataboutism.

Rational analysis, where you are incapable of addressing any wrong doing of the one person that declared an offensive war? Please attack me personally instead of acknowledging that maybe it is not so good to march into your neighbors territory and bomb their cities. But you do you. I’m sure you have your reasons.

Yes, rational analysis as outlined by one of the most eminent geopolitcal researches in US https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

Using your logic, Mearsheimer must be a Russian propagandist. I'm sure you have your reasons for spreading simplistic narratives about the war that ignore the actual reasons behind it.

[–] mormund@feddit.org -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I see, it happens, apology accepted :)

Well since you love fallacies so much I will overlook your appeal to authority and just quote the guy, who ever the heck he is.

This is not to deny, of course, that Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war.

So yeah. What else did I claim when I said that Putin is directly responsible for the war?

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Well since you love fallacies so much I will overlook your appeal to authority and just quote the guy, who ever the heck he is.

I'm not making any appeal to authority. I'm providing you with well argued and sourced explanation of what actually happened. Notice how you did not address any of the points being made in the article.

So yeah. What else did I claim when I said that Putin is directly responsible for the war?

Nice cherry picking there because that's not really the point that the article is making is it?

[–] mormund@feddit.org 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

No, why would I address anything of any subtly or nuance if you cannot even agree to the most basic facts. Facts backed up by your own source?

All you have done so far is back pedal when I try to follow your reasoning. So, please come back to me if you are able to critique anything at all about Putin or Russia. Until then it is a waste of time talking to you.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago

No, why would I address anything of any subtly or nuance if you cannot even agree to the most basic facts. Facts backed up by your own source?

Facts backed by empirical evidence and history. The two things you continue to ignore here.

All you have done so far is back pedal when I try to follow your reasoning. So, please come back to me if you are able to critique anything at all about Putin or Russia. Until then it is a waste of time talking to you.

I haven't back pedaled on anything, but it's clear that an honest discussion is not possible with you. Bye.

[–] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

pungent desperation in this reply

[–] mormund@feddit.org 0 points 2 months ago

Desperate to do what? Understand their comparison better? Not sure what you imagine my goal is