this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2024
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So, what course of action are you proposing? Vote Trump? Vote 3rd party? Don't vote?
What's your intended / expected outcome?
Voting 3rd party is a great idea. One that doesn't support Genocide that is.
A normally blue voter voting 3rd party is indirectly helping Trump win the election. Do you think Trump's Israel policy is going to be better than Harris's?
Trump will be the same on israel. Are you going to reward the Democrats for 10 months of Genocide?
Are you going to reward Trump for his decade of insane douchebaggery and criminal behavior? Why would we do that?
Never did I say vote for Trump you're just putting words in my mouth now. But you're saying you consider Trumps record of being a scamming piece of trash worse than literal Genocide?
If a massive number of voters would vote third party that would be great. But based on every presidential election ever that's just wishful thinking. The reality is a vote for a third party is one less vote for the best chance to defeat Trump.
The reality here is we aren't going to win with a non genocide candidate. The best we can do is go with the masses and vote the least bad candidate in.
Self-fulfilling prophecies are not an argument.
You are confusing how you wish the world worked for how the world actually works.
No u
You don’t seem to have read or followed any of the logic here. Why’s that?
Someone who would otherwise vote for Harris voting 3rd party would help Trump win. Pretty simple. Not sure what’s so hard to understand about that. And Trump would be just as bad on Gaza, worst likely, and worse on every other issue facing the country as well. Not sure how many times we have to say it.
Well, I'm not a single-issue voter.
I'm not rewarding them for anything, but I accept that it's possible to oppose one policy a politician has, even a very important one, and at the same time support a lot of other policies they have, while also vehemently opposing almost all policies that their opponent supports, and make my choice based on that information.
Based on this post, you seem to be a single-issue voter, though, so I'm trying to understand what you're hoping the outcome is. You acknowledge that a vote that supports Trump, even indirectly, is not helping the people of Gaza, so why would you vote against your own self-interests? What's your goal?
If your goal is to show opposition to what's happening in Gaza, there's much more effective ways to do that. Get out there and protest - the protests at the DNC are getting a lot of news coverage, that's where your activism could actually make a difference. Not here.
Would you be a single-issue voter if you were the victim of Genocide?
The outcome is the Democrats stop committing Genocide or they don't get votes. "But Trump" isn't even an argument.
If I were the victim of genocide, I wouldn't be a voter at all, because I'd be dead. However, that's kind of irrelevant - are you the victim of genocide? I'm assuming not, if you're voting in the US election. Even if you're Palestinian, your people are the victim of genocide, but unless you're in Palestine, you aren't.
That said, if you are Palestinian, I feel for you, I honestly do, and it would explain your view somewhat.
I think we can both agree that there's only two outcomes that're possible in this election: Trump wins, or Harris wins. (If you don't agree, I'd be happy to hear your third outcome.) If you truly believe there's no difference between the two of them, you need to do some research on the topic, because there are a lot of differences, even if they don't pertain to this issue specifically.
If, between the two of them, you hope Harris wins, a 3rd party vote is voting against your interests. If you hope Trump wins between the two of them, a 3rd party vote is still voting against your interests, because you're effectively taking a vote away from your preferred candidate among the two who could possibly win.
Edit to respond to your edit:
Unless you're out there protesting, or writing letters, or making phone calls, or in some way letting them know that their policy is costing them your vote, it's a useless gesture. Posting on Lemmy isn't going to change any politician's minds. It's not even going to change anyone's mind here, in all likelihood. If you actually want to make a difference, you need to make your voice heard by the people whose minds you're actually trying to change.
Not every victim of Genocide is killed. Any person who was put in a concentration camp by Hitler, or even persecuted, was a victim of the Holocaust. Similarly any person in Gaza is the victim of a Genocide. And you don't have to be a Palestinian to empathise with people.
Your scope of analysis is limited to 4 years. There's no long term analysis. If people vote for Genocide it will cement that Democrats can get away with anything if they fearmonger hard enough.
When people threaten to withhold votes for a Genocide they have to follow through or all the leverage falls away. It's a game of chicken now.
And if you're not scared of a convicted felon who promises to be a dictator on day one and has the Supreme Court in his pocket who granted him immunity as well as a cult like following who stormed the Capitol to attempt an insurrection yet who also praises dictators and salutes their generals and has nothing to lose getting ahold of the Presidency then I don't know what to tell ya. But sure, let's play chicken with the saner and lesser of the two evils and help MAGA win.
We've heard this one in 2016. The duopoly will not allow the facade to end. There will be elections in 2028.
He was a convicted felon who had the Supreme Court in his pocket who granted him immunity as well as an attempted insurrection in his honor and he saluted hostile generals?
I don't remember if he promised to be a dictator on day one or had already praised dictators back then, so I'll grant you that one out of...everything else he's done since then which was not covered in 2016.
Trump was not just going to install a Fascist regime but commit a Genocide on all Mexicans and Arabs and start nuclear WW3. In the end he built a worthless border wall and a did Muslim ban that got overturned rather quickly.
Collective amnesia amongst Democrats appears to have wiped all the memories of previous Trump fearmongering away. There's room for fresh new fearmongering again.
I don't care about Trumps felony convictions of him bribing a porn star. Biden and Harris should face trial in the Hague for literal Genocide.
Do you hear yourself? You even point out he implemented a Muslim ban. Clearly, the side you should be supporting. No reason to think otherwise. Nope.
OK, I'll bite. Trump wins. Give your "long term analysis"
Democrats won't do Genocide in 2028 if they win then because they have now learnt they can't get away with literally anything by feamongering.
Democrats can't just say they're "not Trump". They have to be "not Trump".
You honestly think losing one election will teach anybody anything? How the fuck will they know what lesson to learn when they lose? As other commenters have said, their are other issues the two parties disagree on. How will they know what one to blame for losing?
On the other hand, pubs are learning that they can run a convicted felon that promises a dictatorship if he wins. Yeah, let's set that precedent...
Already proven. They dropped Biden because they knew they would get Hillary2016'd if they didn't. Democrats only seem to learn their lesson the hard way.
Heard the dictator shtick in 2016 try something new.
Ah yes, "proven". It's obvious to me by your use of "proven", "their", "dictator shtick", etc... that you are one of the crazies. You're not here to spread wisdom because you have none and you're not here to gain wisdom because you're incapable of hearing it. Please feel free to go fuck yourself with a red trucker hat.
As usual when defeated resort to ad-hominems.
The long term analysis is that both Israel and Palestine have been more interested in conflict than peace for far longer than I have been alive.
The reality is that their little quarrel is pretty low on my list of priorities. I want representatives who share that opinion.
Both Sidesing a Genocide by lying about history, another brave approach.
Universal Healthcare ranks higher on my list of priorities than Palestine.
Because it affects you?
Massive Hitlerite opinion there. Free healthcare for you is more important than ceasing support for genocide?!
The guys is just a trump/maga shill who exploits the suffering in Gaza to attack the democratic party. That's all he every posts about. Don't waste your time.
I don't think it's a waste of time. Even if I can't convince him specifically, there are other people reading these posts. If someone came to this thread who was less sure, and I can change their mind, that's good enough for me.
No. In his previous term he clearly favoured Israel more than what the current government is. Examples I remember are moving the embassy to contested/Palestinian territory, having his corrupt step son manage policy in the middle east and wasn’t Kushner and the kids involved in shady business dealings in the area as well.
Stopping the genocide is very important, but it’s also very important to stop the facist from taking power. EVERYTHING, including Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians will be a whole lot worse with the facist in power.
Trump will kiss up to Netanyahu because they are both demagogues.
And the Democrats moved the embassy back right?
Proving they are trying to improve the situation for the Palestinians by righting a wrong done by the other, and far worse, of the two candidates. Right?
Which of these is worse?
That's complete nonsense. Trump is going to support Netanjahu going full fascist. The Democrats are going to offer at least some resistance. Not nearly enough obviously, but there is a clear difference nonetheless. A second Trump administration would be extremely damaging not just to the US but to the entire world. But that's fine by you, isn't it? People like you just want to see the world burn and all your ideas of how something better is somehow going to rise from the ashes are just bullshit.
You can't defend a Genocide by pretending the Demcrats haven't already gone full Fascist. All of Netanyahu's commands have been obeyed to perfection.
The laws of thermodynamics are sometimes summarized as
That summary applies to the Israel/Palestine conflict. Everyone is going to be pissed off no matter what we do, including if we do nothing.
Politically, the best way to deal with Israel/Palestine is "Hey, look, a squirrel".
Doing mental gymnastics to ignore a Genocide is very convenient.
Climate Change is a much higher priority than Palestine.
Because it affects you personally?
Just say you want Trump to win, we can all tell.
So you understand the mathematical flaws of First past the post voting?
How is the electoral reform campaign going in your state? Surely you wouldn't understand the faults of the voting system and then do nothing to fix it!