In the same way that 3000 year old stories are not sufficient evidence for people to believe in god, so are a couple news articles about words behind closed doors not enough evidence to condemn a man.

[–] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

But as for actually judging people only based on what they say

How dare we judge someone based on [checks notes] the actual words. they say???

But let's focus on the actual things the church believes for a moment. Certainly that's better, right? Certainly they're... hmmm... well, yikes!

But still this is the "good pope" right? So certainly he wouldn't... oh fuck.

Well, turns out it's fair after all to judge him as bring a confirmed queerphobe and the catholic church as a hate group.

So with this further context I repeat: do you condemn the pope's repeated use of an actual homophobic slur? (Not that you should require this further context, since he has no excuse for using this term as someone outside the queer community.)

[–] Audrey0nne@leminal.space 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

In March 2021, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said that the church cannot bless same-sex relationships because "God cannot bless sin".[6]On 18 December 2023, it published Fiducia supplicans, a declaration allowing Catholic priests to bless people who are not considered to be married by the Church, including same-sex couples.[7]

The church provides pastoral care for LGBT Catholics through a variety of official and unofficial channels that vary from diocese to diocese, and senior clergy and popes have recently begun to call for the church to do more. In many parts of the world, the Church is active politically on issues of LGBT rights. The relationship between the Catholic Church and the LGBT community has been a difficult one, especially during the height of the AIDS crisis, and World War II Nazi Germany.[8]

Pope Francis was the first pope to support same-sex civil unions as legal protections for same-sex couples.[9][10] He has denounced laws criminalising homosexuality.[11][12][13]

Dang if only you had read the full article.

You know it’s real easy to judge others for the sins of their fathers. How far into your family history would we need to dig to judge you for the rape or murders your forebears likely committed?

Now I know all about Catholic doctrine having been raised in the faith. And first hand I have experienced their brand of hate, it was both taught to me and turned against me when I came out the closet. For a long time after I was ousted from that community I let that hate fester my every waking thought. It wasn’t until those feelings actually killed me and I came back from the other side that I realized how stupid the whole thing was. Hating those who hated me only produced more hate in the world.

I let go of the pain I felt by no longer wanting others to feel how I did.

Judging people on their words and their beliefs is the same discrimination you say to hate. Doing it to people who do it to you doesn’t magically make you right and them wrong, it’s always wrong.

So I will repeat myself, I condemn the use of slurs.

[–] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Do you specifically condemn the Pope for his use of slurs?

Also, not appreciating you downplaying the fact that the Catholic church clearly believes LGBTQIA+ is a sin. This is not allyship by any stretch of the imagination.

You know it’s real easy to judge others for the sins of their fathers. How far into your family history would we need to dig to judge you for the rape or murders your forebears likely committed?

Irrelevant. I'd condemn them. There's never been an excuse for such behavior.

I'm only judging the church and it's shitty pope based on their actual words and actions. They're still an active hate group in 2024.

[–] Audrey0nne@leminal.space 1 points 5 months ago

I condemn the use of slurs. Ask me that question again, I defy you to make me give you the same answer to the same question.

This is not an allyship by any stretch of the imagination.

Then you have a severely limited imagination and an equally dismal knowledge of history beyond the past century. Does the small things the church has tried to do to mend all the awful things they’ve done? Not even close, frankly I’m not satisfied they’ve even begun to redeem themselves for the inquisition and they likely may never in my lifetime. Likely not yours or in a thousand or in a million but they might one day. That small infinitesimal chance is the same as life forming on Earth. I’m hedging my bets on the house.

I’d condemn them.

This is what is irrelevant to my point. It’s not about how you judge others it’s about how others would judge you. Based on your logic of judging others harshly for the action of those that came before, you would be judged severely. Worry not for many would burn with you, myself included.

There’s never been an excuse for such behavior.

No but there’s been an infinite number of rationalizations used for it. Until humanity collectively became better and continues to do so it was a fact of life. Not an excuse just acceptance of reality.

I'm only judging the church and its shitty pope based on their actual words and actions.

Are you though? Because you seem reactionary only to what is in front of you. Not on the totality of human history nor through any perspective beyond your own do you seem to be making your decisions.

They're still an active hate group in 2024.

Yes they are but I can’t say for sure that they will tomorrow. Even if tomorrow they still are, still doesn’t answer for the day after or the one after that and ad infinitum until reality ends and no more chances for redemption could be had.

This is where you and I simply will not agree. I believe that everyone is worthy of redemption. What actually earns redemption is far beyond my point and what an organization as long and old as these fuckers would have to do truly stretches the imagination but it’s not an impossibility. I cannot judge what redeems others because I cannot judge what redeems me. All I know is that trying to be better today than yesterday has to be worth something.

Also, not appreciating you downplaying the fact that the Catholic church clearly believes LGBTQIA+ is a sin.

Is that what that wiki page you presented and I quoted for you says to you? Because to me it says that opinions are split and change couldn’t come soon enough but it’s coming as fast as it can. If that isn’t good enough for you then that is your own personal problem.

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