What would you call over a million people fleeing their homes, while the government of the land they live on is shelling those very homes and passing legislation to make their very existence impossible? What would you call parents fleeing with their children in a desperate attempt to keep them safe? Would it be acceptable to leave orphans in an orphanage with artillery shells dropping all around and fire fights happening just down the street? Would you be alright with parents deciding to stay in their war torn village just so that they don't cross a border in to what you've determined as enemy territory? What would you call a violent terror campaign over a decade long being waged against millions of people just because of the langauge they speak and the area they come from?

[–] jleep@feddit.nl 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I’d call you a shill. This place needs moderators.

[–] knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Welcome to Lemmy, where your worldview is challenged and the US government doesn't get to censor every perspective they don't want you to know about.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

There seem to be a lot of people who don't know or who do know and don't care how much control western national security personnel had/have over the narrative on the major, centralised social media platforms.

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yep. Give it time, a lot of these communities are still basically brand-new, and moderation tools are in their infancy. Long term, I don't think Russian trolls will find Lemmy all that welcoming for their garbage.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@knfrmity@lemmygrad.ml literally just summarised a UN report on this topic: https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-11/aPR32_final_ENG.pdf

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The fact that Russia is losing badly and becoming more and more destabilized must worry you.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Why would it worry me? I don't have a horse in this race.

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Amazing. Not a single word of that was true.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And yet… a brief internet search will reveal (and I have deliberately found a mixture of sources, most of which are anti-Russian)…

spoiler

By 2016, the BBC was reporting that at least 9,200 people had been killed since 2014: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36148882
‘Donbas war death toll rises up to nearly 13,000’: https://www.unian.info/war/10416549-donbas-war-death-toll-rises-up-to-nearly-13-000-un.html
UN Reported, ‘the total civilian death toll of the conflict has reached at least 3,390. The number of injured civilians is estimated to exceed 7,000.’ https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2021-11/aPR32_final_ENG.pdf. The same document reports: ‘Thirteen civilian casualties resulted from active hostilities: four killed (all men) and nine injured (seven men and two women). Seventy-seven per cent of these (four killed and six injured) were recorded in territory controlled by self-proclaimed ‘republics’, and 23 per cent (three injured) in the Government-controlled part of Donetsk region. For example, on 14 April 2021, a man was killed by mortar shelling in armed group-controlled Donetsk; and on 19 June 2021, a man was injured by heavy machine gun fire in Government-controlled Avdiivka (Donetsk region).’
UN Security Council meeting on 29 May 2018 reported’: “The conflict [in eastern Ukraine] continues to test the credibility of international and regional organizations and erodes the trust Member States need to work together in the interest of Europe’s stability,” said Rosemary DiCarlo, Under‑Secretary‑General for Political Affairs. Repeated pledges to respect the ceasefire as laid out in the 2015 Minsk agreements had failed to end the fighting, now in its fifth year. Destruction and immense suffering continued, she said, noting that the civilian death toll stood at more than 2,700, with up to 9,000 injured.’ https://press.un.org/en/2018/sc13357.doc.htm
https://www.donbass-insider.com/2021/03/09/ukraine-intensifies-shelling-and-preparations-for-offensive-in-the-donbass/
You’ll notice the anti-Russia sentiment in some stories, e.g. https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-shootings-donetsk-moscow-russia-3d2e732cc1a88c0d1b36fe856b45a8a9 but they don’t deny the fact of a conflict. Instead they claim that France and Germany tried hard to arrange a peace agreement, known as Minsk, which apparently granted Russia too much.
Looking further into Minsk, Merkel later revealed: ‘"It's a great sadness that it didn't work out, but I don't blame myself for not trying," said Merkel, speaking of the 2014 Minsk agreement with Russia.’ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/merkel-says-she-doesnt-blame-herself-not-trying-hard-enough-ukraine-2022-06-07/. In other words, ‘The 2014 Minsk Agreement was an attempt to buy time for Ukraine’—NATO was never serious about suing for peace: https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/12/13/merkels-confession-could-be-a-pretext-for-an-international-tribunal/. To the real international community (not just the white parts of it): ‘Real intention behind Minsk agreements further destroys credibility of the West’ https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202212/1281708.shtml.
https://popularresistance.org/ukraine-intensifies-shelling-of-donbass-as-western-media-are-silent/
https://www.fpri.org/article/2019/10/five-years-of-war-in-the-donbas/
https://blog.politics.ox.ac.uk/most-people-in-separatist-held-areas-of-donbas-prefer-reintegration-with-ukraine-new-survey/

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah, it's "pretend Russia didn't invade Crimea and start messing with shit in 2014" time, eh?

Yeah, no... Sorry, but this shit doesn't work anymore. You guys need to get better material.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What does Crimea have to do with Donbas?

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh, come on... Russia started annexing Crimea and sending infiltrators into Donbas to prop up separatists at about the same time.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Okay, and does that make it acceptable for Ukraine to shell Ukrainians? That is what the linked sources evidence.

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wait, are you trying to say the Russia-backed Donbas "republic" was illegitimate and those separatists who were killed were actually Ukrainians?

You can't have it both ways. You don't get to proclaim Donbas a separate country and then claim that when those separatists were killed for waging war on Ukraine, they were Ukrainians.

Get your story straight. Either Donbas is part of Ukraine and these guys were basically terrorists trying to destroy the country, or citizens of the "Donbas People's Republic" were killed, not Ukrainians.

Pick one.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 year ago

You've completely lost me. I have no idea what you're talking about. You may be confusing me with someone else. I've not made any claims about Donbas being a separate country. I don't think it works like that. And I'll have to check the details but I the Minsk agreements may have spoken of autonomous regions rather than separate countries.

The linked UN report(s) detail how so many thousands of people were killed in Eastern Ukraine in the years following 2014. Whether whatever happened afterwards changes or leaves unaffected the legal status of those regions, the fact remains that five digits of people were killed, with many more injured, and seven digits of people were displaced. And completely regardless of what Russian, Ukrainian, or Separatist government officials or actors were doing, the affected people were overwhelmingly innocent civilians just trying to go about their daily lives. Killing them indiscriminately is both (a) an historical fact and (b) wrong.